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Cruzbikes are they for real fast?

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Public Enemy	Posted - 10/27/2011 : 23:28:30 Are Cruzbikes the new recumbent speed machines? You tell me. If I see Sean on one then I know this "movement" in bent land is for real. Public Enemy
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
yakmurph	Posted - 10/20/2012 : 11:48:54 I'm not a fast rider on any bicycle and I never will be a fast rider on a bicycle. I'm sure that everyone reading this could beat me, with one leg tied to their seat! However, I've been riding my Cruzbike Sofrider V1 for six years now. Some of you wondered about wasting effort keeping an MBB going where you want it to go, while making power for top speed. It's not a problem. The faster you go on an MBB, the easier it is to keep it going on the line you want. I would think that the mass of the bikes' wheel rims would have more of an effect on straight-line stability at speed than the MBB frame would. (More mass in both the wheel rims and tires = more straight line stability.) I've learned many different techniques for countering pedal-steer: -body english, shifting hips, rocking my head and the like. The aim of rocking the bike from side to side is to counter any leg/pedal induced steering input with a counter-steering input. -Steering with my legs. The legs (even mine!) are stronger than the arms. I use this technique minimally, as rocking the bike frame to counter-steer is much more efficient than is steering with the legs. -Steering with my arms/shoulders/upper body. My arms are relatively weak, even after decades of wrestling motorcycles around corners at high rates of speed. I principally use this technique when starting from a stop and occasionally when pedaling up long hills. I compare the (steering) movements I make on my Sofrider, while sprinting and while powering uphill for example, to standing on the pedals (out of the saddle) of a standard-frame bicycle (D.F. bike). In fact, I make the most power on my Sofrider when I stand on my pedals and pull my body off of the seat by pulling on the handlebars. Can you see that this is the same thing that a D.F. rider does when they're out of the saddle... working hard? What's the most outrageous thing to ask an MBB bike to do? I'm guessing that that would be putting it into a racing streamliner shell! It would fit... but expecting the contraption to turn? Good luck with that! Final thoughts? The longer I ride this MBB, the easier it is to ride. I like my Sofrider so much that I have no desire to buy/own any other bike. Your carbon-fiber WonderBike(s) make me drool! But I love my bike. And it's paid for. My bike can climb; I can't. -Here's how I know: half of the local D.F. riders are better climbers than I am; I climb better than the others. My bike, with me on it, is faster uphill than any recumbent I've ridden with, so far. That includes a very nice P38 Lightning and a very pretty Bachetta Aero. The Bachetta was significantly faster everywhere else, but was outclassed up hills. Not bad, for what is essentially a hot-rodded dirt bike (Sofrider)! The Vendetta is, in my opinion, a seriously fast road bike. "Me, we." -Muhammad Ali
baba	Posted - 09/27/2012 : 19:27:40 quote: Originally posted by jim parker Yes, interesting discussion. I'll try to recall and answer some of the points/questions raised. Regarding "wasted lateral force vectors". If you ride a fixed-boom bike/trike and at some point in your pedal rotation you have a little hitch where you, for example, pull your left foot inward for a split second at the 8 o'clock position, you would never know it because your boom is fixed. Maybe this little hitch started after an injury or to compensate for a minor asymmetry in body dimension, and it just got reinforced over time. Now, if you move to an MBB, you are very quickly going to discover that hitch, because it will make you wobble. And pretty quickly you will either eliminate that hitch or give up on MBB. So, Grasshopper, when you can ride the MBB Cruzbike with no hands you will be ready to leave the Temple and enter the real world (OK, I used to be a big Kung Fu fan). Regarding hill-climbing - on a Cruzbike MBB it's much like a DF. You can climb "just spinning"... or you can bring in the upper body and climb faster. I don't like to use the word "efficient" because you have to define what we are aiming to conserve. If our aim is to climb the hill with the least amount of energy expenditure, quiet spinning is probably the best. If the aim is to conserve time on the course, and leave your competition in the dust, then throwing in the whole body is more efficient. I've seen enough evidence to know that the Cruzbike MBB design (I specify Cruzbike MBB because our drivetrain is patented and I can't speak for other varieties of MBB that people have tested) climbs faster than any other recumbent. I respect you if you disagree, but I've climbed hills with enough other recumbent riders and communicated with enough Cruzbike riders around the world to know its more than hype. I've offered to put my money where my mouth is and no other recumbent company has stepped forward to help fund a University trial. http://cruzbike.com/proposal-scientific-comparison-bicycle-hill-climbing-performance-0 Regarding participation in more events.. heck yes, love to! Just have to find the time. The logistics to get to the TTTT were pretty costly, but we wanted to do it because it's hilly and non-drafting. Regarding sharing some of my Garmin data. I'm flattered. Here's a ride/race I did in September as a warm-up for the TTTT. 102 mile loop course with over 5000 feet of climbing in 4:44. This is a tough course with lots of intersections, potholes, etc. I spent about 40 miles out front and 60 miles in the back of a lead pack of some of the best amateur DF cyclists in North Carolina. I finished within 2 minutes of the first finisher. This has my power data, but I was not wearing a HR monitor. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/112162102 Cheers, Jim Parker
lida	Posted - 09/15/2012 : 09:53:44 quote: 7) Has anyone done any Cat. 1 climbs in Italy with a recumbent? If so what climb and what recumbent? I climbed the Stelvio from Prato. The climb starts at 950 m and ends at 2758 m (difference 1808 m, 5930 ft). It took slightly over two hours. I rode an Effendi low-racer (12.5 kg, http://www.effendibikes.de/Bilder/Effendi_April_06/DSC_7983.jpg) which has an aluminium frame but is quite stiff for a low-racer. Now I ride with a Razz-Fazz Race which is faster uphill due to its low weigth (8.2 kg) and its stiffer frame (carbon fiber). The commercial version of the Razz-Fazz is produced by www.troytec.de According to my experience you need at least 10000 km to be as good on a recumbent as on a DF. It is important to train in L4 and L5 power zones to become strong on the recumbent. Then you need to carefully tune the geometry to maximise power output. For me a 6 mm too long or too short distance between seat and BB costs about 20-30 Watts.
TTman	Posted - 09/13/2012 : 00:38:37 I am in Italy with my Carbent. One reason I bought the Carbent is I was told it is the best climbing recumbent. If so I am in trouble. 1) I am stronger than my 5 other riding friends on DD frames. 2) The slowest of them beats me up any categorized climb by alot. 3) I did the Foza climb (I think it is a Cat. 3 or 4 climb), 14.4 KM with 20 switchbacks and had to stop and rest twice. 4) They drop me on any climb. 5) I probably cannot do the Cat. 1 climbs they do (I did not even try Monte Grappa with them). 6) There is no name for recumbent in Italian. Our guide, a 35 year old racer who lives in Verona had never seen a recumbent before. In 10 days we have not seen another recumbent and all the local riders stare at my Carbent. 7) Has anyone done any Cat. 1 climbs in Italy with a recumbent? If so what climb and what recumbent? Thanks. TTman
TTman	Posted - 09/13/2012 : 00:29:40 quote: Originally posted by tim_turner not trying to "prove" anything. just poke holes in misconceptions. I am certainly faster on my Bent then my equally weighted DF. Difference between me and almost everyone else is I was never competitive on my DF. If it weren't for my bent I would have never even thought about competition, especially climbing. It's more about being a pioneer than an evangelist. As far competing in the hills and mountains, I've already surpassed the expectations of even the least skeptical of my peers. And that's with a 25-30lb aluminum framed Corsa. No serious climber would even dream of showing up to a climbing competition on a bike weighing even 20lbs. or with a camelbak. :-) Curious if you ever really gave your bent a real chance in the mountains? Or, if like so many others, pulled out the Orbea when the course included daunting climbs. I think that's a major factor common with everyone who says their bents aren't as fast up hill. "my bent isn't as fast uphills so I don't even take out anymore" kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Um idk, "step up" by getting away from an overwhelming focus on ultra distances and start competing in more 'regular' length events that 'regular' racers understand? I guess..? I was more calling out the Cruzbike and Lighting guys. I don't think anyone at Bacchetta has ever claimed to have the best climbing bike, actually. They seem to avoid these threads and go and race. If Cruzbike or Lighting wants the title of "best climbing bent" they should come take it away from me (I officially declared myself that some time last year lol). In all seriousness, I've spent a significant amount time trying to find bent climbers. The only ones who seem to excel at climbing are ultra distance guys. Can't think of anything greater than getting beat in a climbing event by another bent. I'd probably help finance his moving into my neighborhood. :) Bents aren't magic, you get out what you put in. I'm not going win climbing events on my bent. Not because I'm on a bent, but because I wouldn't win on any bike. I do know that I will place much higher on my bent. Just because some bents allow a 300 watt rider to compete with a 400 watt rider on the flats, doesn't mean the bent can't climb. It means the DF can't go as fast on the flats. I know a few athletes in my area that are actually as fast or faster than me on the flats but I've beaten on hill climbs. My 'speed profile' actually lines up pretty well with a lot of athletes. They're typically a bit heavier and a bit stronger than me. I think that'd change with a 15 lb bent significantly. T TTman
psychling	Posted - 03/29/2012 : 01:10:22 quote: Originally posted by Speedbiker Nice write up, Dan. How is the weather out there? 21 inches of snow 8 days ago. Melted off in 3 days. A mite tricky in terms of dressing for the dramatic changes in altitude. Quick training log tally this afternoon yielded these data since Jan 1, 2012: - 43 outdoor training sessions; - 1,501 miles; - 97,513 feet of climbing. Today's training will add 54 miles and 5,700 more feet of climbing. Strikes me as odd that I could wind up with as few as 6,000 miles of riding but with over 400,000 feet of climbing for the year.
Speedbiker	Posted - 03/28/2012 : 05:46:05 Nice write up, Dan. How is the weather out there?
psychling	Posted - 03/28/2012 : 04:08:36 There is no question, in my mind, that the Vendetta, in particular, supports upper body development. As does the Silvio, but to a lesser degree. One of the three main reasons I have both the Sofrider, Silvio and Vendetta is to combine full body workouts with cycling performance. The pedal steer issue is one that evaporates with experience on the bike. Instead of being a masher (my Bacchetta method) I am a `gradualist' with the Cruzbikes. Takes a very little practice to learn this. I get a very big return in upper body strength and coordination. Both the Silvio and Vendetta are serious performance machines; the Vendetta more so. I ride the Vendetta in desert flat terrain and in steep mountainous switchbacks and ascents and descents. Like ANY other bike I switch out my gearing to match the terrain. I want, and like it, that my shoulders, arms and hands are stronger because of my Cruzbike riding. It got to be ridiculous on my Bacchetta that I took John Schlitter's lead by attaching loops on my handlebars so I could `hang' my hands in them on long rides. Finally, with most recumbents one has to deal with a tall riser to which the handlebars are attached. Unless my angle of recline is virtually nonexistent I am unable to see the road in front of me, it being obscured by the riser and handlebars. Not so with the Cruzbike. At 22 per cent recline I see the road in front of me unobstructed because the boom delivers the handlebars far below my line of sight. On ALL bikes, when descending steep and twisty roads the rider has to either sit up (recumbent) or corner with your shoulders to allow your vestibular system to balance speed and angle. At all times the rider has to assess the condition of the road ahead (sand, potholes, rockfall, ice, etc).
Larry Lem	Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:42:21 Nice summary! Larry Lem
Patrick Bateman	Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:32:16 quote: Originally posted by marc Hi, I'm the pilot of the green Kouign Amann (KA) made by Zockra, that's the correct spelling 25hz!. Other than that I agree with some points of what you wrote which apply to most MBB. I've briefly tried bikes like the Vendetta or the softrider and I don't like the large pedal steer interaction associated with this geometry. Note that even slightly different angles can change the behaviour of the bike drastically. For example the Sokol http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=117&u=11950363 is much easier to control that the vendetta in my opinion. Having said that it's a valid choice if you consider that involving arms in the ride is a good idea to boost power. But as you said in the long term you have to pay the penalty for that with more tiredness and overall less efficiency (just like riding an upright standing on the pedals) . To come back to my own experience on the KA, downhills at more than 80kph are no problems (pedalling up to 70kph after that my spinning cadence is too fast!) Uphills are fast (tested up to 20%) but bear in mind that my bike weighs 8.5kg only, this helps. Finally riding this bike casually is a pleasure: no hands easy, very agile in crowded city centres compared to a no-com for example. marc There is a ton of pedal steer in the Cruzbike, admittedly. I think that one big difference between the Zockra KA geometry and the Vendetta geometry is that the Vendetta is set up like a rowing machine. In a rowing machine, you pull the weight towards you, in a straight line perpendicular with your chest On a Vendetta, you do the same. That's why the boom is straight, and incredibly beefy. By setting it up like a rowing machine, we have two forces acting on the pedals. First, your legs are pushing against the pedals. But at the same time, your upper body is 'pulling' the pedals in harmony. It's a bit hard to describe. It took me a few weeks before I could get a good rhythm going, but once I did, it felt very similar to riding a DF bike out of the saddle, except my whole body is rotated ninety degrees. If you look at Parker's pics, it seems like her shoulders are getting broader over the past couple years. Which would be consistent with an upper body workout due to the bike. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm 'drinking the kool aid' though. I think these types of bikes are just the tip of the iceberg, and there's still plenty of refinements available. I noticed when I first started riding a Cruzbike that my upper body was completely wiped out, but I think that was mostly because I was trying to 'fight' the bike. Once I learned to involve the shoulders and the legs in harmony, everything got a lot easier. I still want a faster bike tho :D It's going to be sunny here in about three months.
Patrick Bateman	Posted - 02/29/2012 : 19:00:50 quote: Originally posted by sean costin Just want to squeak a word in to the conversation relative to the ultra competition at Sebring. The Cruzbike has a more efficient drive train than the Nocom or RWD low racers and high racers. The Cruzbike in general has less efficient aerodynamics than a Low racer like the Nocom. As Aerodynamics become more important such as in our lap races,TT's and sprints with the HPRA and ABR where the average speeds often exceed 28mph for the top racers for one hour, the Nocom and other RWD lowracers will be faster. As the speed is reduced, and the significance of the aerodynamics is reduced, at some unknown point, the Cruzbike with it's bigger wheels and more efficient drive train will be faster. Likely faster than the Bachetta as well since the drive train will be more efficient. This is how a Cruzbike or a Bachetta can actually be faster than a Nocom in certain circumstances. As ultra speeds increase,AND THEY WILL, the trend will be to favor improved aerodynamics. These are my educated opinions on being somewhat of a pioneer in FWD design. I must say that there are still things with recumbents that surprise me, but if someone came out to our Time Trials in Illinois and Wisconsin or our lap races in Northbrook and beat me or Mike Mowett with a Cruzbike It would mess with my brain. In summary PE, If you plan to be riding at 25mph or higher, then you'll want to get a lowracer. If you plan on doing ultras, then it might be worth checking out a Cruzbike. Different horses for different courses as they say. Sean I had an excellent conversation with John M on the phone today. It gave me a lot of food for thought, as far as what to buy or build next. Here's my situation - I've been cycling for 30yrs, switched to 'bents about six years ago. About 2yrs I started measuring my speed, and it was just abysmal. On a long ride I averaged just 8mph, on this bike: I bought three or four bikes, and settled on a Rans V-Rex as my 'regular' bike. The V-Rex got my averages up to about 15mph. I live in a miserably hilly area (south of Portland), so started looking at Cruzbikes, as I'd heard they're great hillclimbers. Ended up with something like this: This configuration was indeed great at climbing hills. The bike was just ridiculously heavy though - about SIXTY pounds!!! In an attempt to improve aerodynamics, I chopped up the first recumbent, and turned it into a Cruzbike. I ended up with something that has very similar geometry to the Cruzbike Silvio: The Cruzbike mods, plus some other tweaks, got this bike up to the same speed as the V-Rex. About 15mph. I know these speeds are abysmal compared to most of you guys, who are doing 25mph+ Keep in mind it's ridiculously hilly here, I need to train a lot more, and my bikes are all in the price range of about $1000 :) The thing that's got me interested in John's bikes is that I want to get past 20mph averages. The pic above shows a mold I started, in an attempt to build something Zockra-esque. John made some observations which were very interesting. For instance, he mentioned the idea of sitting more upright if you have to climb a lot of hils. I'd never even considered this. And it's consistent with what I've seen here in Portland. My Cruzbike Silvio-esque bike has a good average speed, but it's more difficult to climb hills with than the mountain bike conversion. I had no idea that the very upright seating position and low bottom bracket contributed to the mountain bike's performance. Oddly enough, I've clocked pretty decent times on a lowly Sun EZ-1 "supercruiser". The EZ-1 is big and heavy, but it climbs pretty well. My EZ-1 is faired, and that seems to compensate for it's huge size on the flats, and on the hills, it's surprisingly competitive with my Silvia-esque thing. Paul in Australia used to ride a FWD Performer lowracer, and he said that his P38 was a better climber. Perhaps a bike that's similar to the P38, but FWD and faired, would be a good compromise. Here's why I think this may be the case - The Vendetta clearly uses an ultra-reclined position to improve aerodynamics. But it sounds like you pay a penalty in hillclimbing. I live in an area which is extremely hilly, and I'd happily trade some top speed for faster speeds up the hills. Of course, I could stick with my Silvia-esque bike, but I've found that beefing up the front triangle makes a noticeable difference in power delivery. Basically you're applying power from both your arms and your legs, so a stiff front triangle is essential.
Public Enemy	Posted - 02/28/2012 : 23:35:46 Serious engineering going on on this site for speedy bikes. I am just going to carry on with my non recumbent slow life. Not to be confused with low life. Heck you all have all the knowledge and specs of the fast lane of the bike world. Its time for this guy to just bale and say ya"all are just somking fast.... Public Enemy
Public Enemy	Posted - 02/28/2012 : 23:12:20 Well, To make things short. Looks like I will make another cycling season without a recumbent race bike suitable for your short distance events. I had some money earmarked to be spent in July of this year for a new bike looks like I will just go ahead and buy that new mountain bike that I have needed for quite a few years! There is lots of new stuff out there in the mountain bike world but that would be way off topic to discuss here. Good luck all of you recumbent racers out their especially you ultra riders I have special love an prayer for ya"all. Super great job riding your bikes for this new year!!! Public Enemy
psychling	Posted - 02/26/2012 : 09:08:16 quote: Originally posted by sean costin From what I've seen and tested with the power meter, the High bikes need to have a very laid back rider position to go fast. I owned an M5 and laid it back to the point I could still see where I was going. This called for a modification of the rear seat support. Guys like Aurelien are so laid back that they cant see the road hardly at all. It's fine for a track TT, but on a windy day in Wisconsin, you would be picking gravel out of your hind end in no time- especially if you plan on disks. Sean, that's exactly my experience. Now that I'm living out here in the mountain area of AZ I have had a very lengthy and hard-won learning experience with the recline issues on all my recumbents. When you're in a serious crosswind (e.g., flitting in and out of hills on either end) and when you're descending twisty switchbacks I need to reduce the recline (i.e., sit up more) in order for my vestibular system to be able to work. - Dan
Dreamer	Posted - 02/25/2012 : 19:53:53 quote: language is such an archaic form of communication. :) Good point Tim. We need to be spending less time "communicating" and more time riding.
tim_turner	Posted - 02/25/2012 : 12:22:10 or are you saying that it is already a MBB bike? (i guess i can't tell from the pic) cuz then, i'd ask the same question as PE... why would you make it a MBB on not add the complete triangle... although, clearly it wouldn't need it.. err if it is a MBB... how does a conversation that is fixed onto a page permanently and can be reread over and over again get so complex, anyway? language is such an archaic form of communication. :)
tim_turner	Posted - 02/25/2012 : 12:14:51 "Why not complete the triangle..." on the front-end of the fwd non-MBB bike in the picture? or something else? if you did, how would you turn the wheel? rear wheel steering? Fixed BB connected to the fork would mean the forks wouldn't turn at all... Maybe I missed something. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. OR. Are you now suggesting that Larry road a bike void of a headset on a road course and put up the fastest time? if, so, who cares about his age! T
AA	Posted - 02/25/2012 : 11:18:46 If Larry "couldn't turn it" he would have never had the fastest OVERALL speed at a recent Piru time trial which is a road course. Pretty damn good for a dude in his mid 50's racing a homebuilt FWD. quote: Originally posted by tim_turner cuz then you couldn't turn it?
tim_turner	Posted - 02/25/2012 : 09:34:31 cuz then you couldn't turn it?
Public Enemy	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 23:47:39 Alan, Why not just complete the full front wheel drive triangle on a bike like this for great "Aero" and great efficency like on that Cruz bike? Public Enemy
Public Enemy	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 23:36:52 Was not that M-1 one of AA's many dumpster dive bikes? Just saying... And 4000 dinaro's for this bike on top of that? AA's NoCom is enough for me and I saw enough of his bikes before that.... I got my ass handed to me with every bike he ever built so its time to listen and think.... Hmmm....... Public Enemy
AA	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 23:35:47 This is such a great design. Makes me want to learn how to weld.
AA	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 23:31:56 quote: Originally posted by kidneyboy Do you have the vendetta on rollers or a trainer? My silvio is on a trainer and it behaves in an entirely different fashion than on the road. BTW, the mods you did to the V look really good. chuck Chuck, A stationary trainer until I can ride outside. I put the 2cm Ventisit pad on that Bart sent this week. He did an EXCELLENT job. Just the right amount of cushion for the Vendetta seat.
Public Enemy	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 22:59:35 Hey Sean, Thanks for the answer on that M-1. I am done with long distance cycling other than our clubs yearly century ride. I would lov to get into short distance racing like you guys are into but its difficult to come up with an affordable bike. Just let me tell a tale of my recent DF experiences. I sold my Ti-Aero and all my 'bent stuff in early '08. However in mid '07 i purchased a Surly Steamroller single speed fixed gear bike. I road this bike in Brevets and our hot Tuesday nite Velo club rides with much success. This was my only road bike Sean for that period. I than purchased an Orbea full carbon bike in '10 but the frame broke and I got the "new" frame and its new what ever in mid '10. Got a set of hot wheels and simply trained for shorter rides and I have been successful at this type of cycling. I completed a 200k a 300k and a 400k in 2010 on my Orbea and was going for a 600k and a 1000k when my town and my house got destroyed by a Tornado. So in '11 I just have been concentrating on shorter faster "Velo club" rides and have been doing well in reguards to my age of course. For '12 I would like to move into short and medium recumbent distance recumbent racing but of course obtaining a suitable and affordable bike is a HUGE problem for me. Let me put things in some sort of perspective based upon my own personal experiences. My Surly SS bike was 697 dollars my Orbea was at a great price of 1900 dollars and my hot wheels to make me real fast were 1100 dollars so My total investment with SS bike and hot carbon Orbea was about 3700 dollars. My favorite road bike which I have done many things on in the last 5 years is my simple yet affordable Surly Steamroller fixed/single speed bike. I am riding it right now on our snowy late winter early spring roads to start that process of getting fit for whatever in this new year! Looks like the only way I will be joining Ya-all at your races is on a home brewed bike of some sort or other if at all. So to make it short. Ultra cycling is out and shortra cycling is in for me.... Public Enemy
sean costin	Posted - 02/24/2012 : 21:55:52 M1 M1 looks a lot like a Nocom and it is American(Michigan) Made by John Morciglio. Alan had some issues with his which are well documented. When Alan was racing faster a few years ago, we were just 18 seconds apart when he was on his M1. Now Mike Mowett is racing an M1 and legitimately threatens to smoke me this year. Previously he had a some Baron like bike and I was 2 miles per hour faster then him. I think He's asking 4 grand for a complete bike, but someone could probably correct me. This is the Mid Racer I was talking about. It's actually called a medium racer. It's hard to say how good it is. I've never seen it in action. I've never been a fan of the M5 steering geometry. I'm not sure what you want to do with this bike. Race Ultra's again? 40K's? It's hard for me to advise without knowing what you want to accomplish. Nothing seems to come out of a box and be the answer. Every bike needs tweaking. My Nocom was tweaked before I had it and for some the Nocom never lived up to the expectations. Larry Lem has built many low racers and hit paydirt with a new design that he calls his magic bike. He's doing the same 28mph TT speeds as me with the same low watts verified by powertap. Larry does as much power testing as anyone and this design had boosted his averages at the fiesta TT by about 2 mph over his lowracer. If he cleaned up the aerodyanmics around that seat he might even go faster. I like this design because it isn't super low and the larger front wheel improves the rolling resistance. Regardless of your intent, I think this design offers a balance of capabilities without making big compromises. If had 2 grand and wanted something competitive, I'd show this picture to Tom Porter and see what you he can work out. I'm not so sure the m5 in any style offers the best deal especially with the exchange rate. I've never liked the ones I've tried. That's just my personal experience. Many other have like their M5's. Sean quote: How about that M-5 AL lowracer with an M-5 tail fairing? Would that be a reasonably competitive lowracer? Looks proven and I am a pretty good rider. And Sean, science makes fact. And facts are facts with your stats. Looking at about 2 bills or a little more for the bike and a few hundred for a tail fairing from M-5 to get me started in 'bent racing. And of course I know Tom a "kewl" guy and I would love to work with him on a project like you suggest Sean.... Public

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