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shooky56 Posted - 11/26/2014 : 19:55:35
If anyone else is (or in my case "was") a software engineer, they can appreciate this question. I'm building some software and it's far enough along that it is deliverable even as it sits. Regardless of the level of finish on it, I plan to give to recumbents.com. Haven't seen them serve up any msi files but no reason they couldn't I guess.

The basic questions are "anybody interested?" and is there anything you'd like to see included, lest I've missed something obvious.

At any rate, what it does right now is allow you to enter the frame dimensions, wheel locations (all measured from the nose, ground and centerline for z). It also includes a scalable rider that actually pedals. It then uses then NASA 4-digit airfoil formula to draw a semi-transparent shell (so you can see the rider) based on "tug points" you drag. You simply drag the points until the rider fits.

Not done yet is at least a couple, possibly 3 outputs. My reason to create this was to draw "ribs" on multiple 8.5x11, paste them on plywood and use those shapes to craft a plug (a common technique).

Warren asked if I could dump CNC files. The answer is yes and no. I could pretty easily dump the path for rib cutting but the pathing for the entire 3D shell would be far too complicated.

However, that said, I have considered dumping .stl files which is one of the common mesh transfer protocols. .stl files are usable in several wind flow models and should be an import type for most CNC pathing software (it's basically mesh only, no color or texture overlays included).

The more interest there is in the software, the kinder I'll try to make it.

BTW, although I haven't dumped anything to craft yet, my shell playing always ends up looking amazingly like a Varna! Takes about 60 seconds to drag the stock starter shell into a pretty one.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
RoyMacDonald Posted - 07/20/2017 : 12:35:07
Hi Wayne. The Designer looks great in the tutorials but I can't get it to work as the tutorials show. In the frame designer where the widgets are there is a small light brown rectangle at the top above the widgets and when I left click on any widget that rectangle moves with the mouse and when I click to place it disappears. If I reset the frame I am just left with a blank page upon which I cannot deposit a widget. I can do things with the list if I select that but not like you are doing in the tutorial.

I installed it on a Windows 7 computer at first, then I tried it on my Windows 10 computer and then in W8 compatibility mode. The result was the same for all configurations. Any idea what is wrong? The program looks brilliant if I could get it too work properly.
Jerry Posted - 09/11/2016 : 19:08:08
Put a knee brace on and come on down to Texas and ride. When it cools off, I am going to do a shake down ride to Abilene and back before I go on the Natchez Trace. You are welcome to come ride either one or both. You don't have to race, just relax and ride.
shooky56 Posted - 09/11/2016 : 09:34:12
Thanks Jerry. Looks like they removed the requirement for a valid driver's license. As I looked at this, and the text looked foreign to my memory, it crossed my mind that I was planning to take mine in to an examiner for licensing (which meant I wasn't looking at bike stuff).

Here are those rules for IL. Requires a valid license too.

Only attaining a speed between 20 MPH and 30 MPH within 1 mile.
A motor capable of producing 2 brake horsepower or less.
An engine displacement that does not exceed 50cc (cubic centimeters).
A transmission that does not require gear shifting.

Grant-53 Posted - 09/08/2016 : 10:05:52
Most places 20 mph is the norm. Pennsylvania allows 25 mph. NY has three classes of moped; C 20 mph, B 30 mph, and A motorcycle. No home building unless it is a custom motorcycle. One has to contact the tech center to find out if a moped is an approved model from a manufacturer before it can be registered.
Jerry Posted - 09/07/2016 : 08:52:42
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=236&GAID=10&DocTypeID=SB&SessionID=76. Pretty similar to Missouri's laws on electric bikes.
shooky56 Posted - 09/07/2016 : 08:44:41
Warren: Thanks. Me too. Really should go volunteer at a couple of the closer ones.

Grant E-bike: IL allows e-bikes on the roads (I think anywhere bikes are allowed). Checked this out once years ago so rules are prone to memory and possible rule changes. The assist rule was (IIRC) the bike could not get to more than 25 mph on the level under its own power. Warren probably knows them by heart as he ran several assisted creations to work over the years.
Grant-53 Posted - 09/02/2016 : 20:00:17
Best wishes for your improved health. Any chance the local laws allow for an e-bike conversion?
warren Posted - 09/02/2016 : 16:58:06
Wow, sorry to hear that Wayne. We already miss you at the HPRA races!
carolina Posted - 09/02/2016 : 06:52:07
"just a pic" from raptor in merrietta georgia. Big machine will run out a plug in short time and is sprayed with coats of duratec. Wonder how much they charge?


Google image of the df plug. When df made df-xl plug he took a df shell and " chopped, channel'ed, and section'ed " it and made the bigger plug with less sanding for xl plug.

shooky56 Posted - 09/02/2016 : 05:16:46
Just an update to my HPV friends. I was working diligently on a mold for a shell and, had cast a once off just for a test before Indiana's RAIN.

The easy ride the day after RAIN left me "limping" home on one leg. My left knee hurt so bad I couldn't even let it coast on the pedal. Had to pedal the last 5 miles on one leg.

Haven't been on a bike since. My knee has since gotten better but I have no plans to continue cycling in any form. Really hate that because the carrot of using that shell was a wonderful motivation.

Thankfully I can still walk with my neighbor (who needs it for her health and is afraid to walk alone) and I can do my arc trainer to great misery (which is what my "pusher gene" needs).

If anybody needs or wants something fixed in the software, I'll try to take care of that.

The silver lining in it is my daughter (who will attempt her first marathon in a few weeks) is happy I'm not out on the roads anymore. She worried all the time :)

warren Posted - 05/06/2016 : 07:18:39
Wayne has created a new version of the HPV shell designer app that allows the creation of Kammed fairings, or you can create just a front or rear fairing.

You can install it from the web page below.
Please read the instructions as some of the menus have changed.


shooky56 Posted - 05/02/2016 : 14:50:56
So I acquired a few tools to remove foam at a moderate speed but I've basically been "sculpting" this thing by hand. Removed enough material I was getting worried about it still be airfoil shaped. Made another accuracy check. Printed out a NASA airfoil for the correct chord for shell at its widest. Cut a female of it in cardboard Then used the cardboard like a ruler along the part of the shell it should fit. Would have posted it good or bad but it's nice to see all that pulling and tugging on those 1" foam strips and q good amount of material removal (mostly around the nose) still leave it near the correct shape. Worst gap is about 1/4 inch (and that comes where I had to seam a strip along its length, it kind of sagged in a whisker). Probably make several more of these rulers (may add that feature to the software too).

Rulers will help me keep the shell symmetrical (as viewed from above). The shaping is labor intensive and slow but not really hard, it's almost like a labor of love. Fun to see the smooth aero shape emerge.

Warren I'm going to try to get a release ready for you tonight if I don't get tackled to watch TV this evening.

shooky56 Posted - 05/01/2016 : 13:50:17
AoW-H: Canopy in shell size: No sir it is not included. Also note that you have to drag the tail line high enough (and rear enough) for the canopy to make a teardrop going back. The canopy contour closes to the tail curve. Tried a lot of canopy algorithms and that mostly closely mirrors what the builders have actually done IMO.

Even though the quick analysis tool in the software doesn't include it in the shell size. The export STL option exports the canopy for CFD runs so it can be analyzed.

I really NEED to drop Warren another version. The problem I ran into was my strip widths. Long story but they came out too narrow toward the rear half of the shell. Actually too narrow all the way but it was tiny until you get 5 or 6 feet back (my nose cones only had small errors that went undetected).

If you are building a strip full shell, you need the new version. All versions export the non-strip shell just fine (like for CFD runs); at least as far as I know. They do show up the right size in AutoDesk's CFD (after you tell it the units).

The only reason I was holding off is my ribs come out OK but my Kamm plug needed some fixing. It's minor and not much of a problem so the version I'm running would be OK too. You can always just use the rear end for a Kamm plug pattern. Can't do that for the mid ribs.

Anyway here is my shell so far. Boy have I learned a lot about making a shell. This one is around 30 hours of work, mostly trying to pull it together. Were I to do this again, I think I can be at the same point in 10 hours or so. BTW the pipe down the middle is the best dang thing ever. The homemade clamp is kept moderately tight so I can spin the shell with both hands but the belt sander won't spin it. Have a flexible sanding board inbound, then it's drywall mud next, then a local hottub maker is going to fiberglass it for me with their chop gun (or they said they would a year ago). Then it's carbon and Kevlar. Was going to just glass it but I spent a couple days making sure it's close enough that I can get it to work somehow so I'm going carbon from the get go.

458si on this one but I'm a little guy, wheels go outside. Probably end up modifying it for sharper turns and still have to move the steering to a steering wheel inside rather than outside hand holds (this one goes on my Cattrike).

warren Posted - 05/01/2016 : 05:18:26
Sounds great Scott. Wayne should read this soon to answer your question. Are you building your own trike too? Good luck with your build.
Archer O. White-Horse Posted - 04/30/2016 : 20:08:34
Wayne and Warren, Just restarted my low trike design again. I'm wondering if the program takes the canopy into consideration when you calc frontage area? I got a 543 si on my shell, and it uses underseat steering. The bottom of the seat in the program sits about 6 inches off the ground. My P-O-C Trike is 120 inch long, 27.0 inch tall, and 29.2 inch wide, (not counting 36 inch width at centers of rear hubs.). Wish me luck!

Scott Reid Hampton
Jerry Posted - 04/30/2016 : 19:33:52
And I thought I was the only one with old timers! Ha. If I don't have a pocket on my riding shirt, my wife asks me more times than not, you know you have your shirt on backwards. LOL. I know how you feel Scott.
Archer O. White-Horse Posted - 04/30/2016 : 17:14:38
Hey Shook! Heard you did an update to HPV Shell Designer. Is that what is on the download link, or do I have to go somewhere else to get that?
Oops! What a Shear Nut! "Go to last page of Forum to read last update info!" Got it Guys. Thanks so much. Will post how my design is coming along.

Scott Reid Hampton
warren Posted - 04/24/2016 : 19:29:40
Last month Wayne sent me a new version (V1.5) of the shell designer software that fixes a problem where dragging the canopy displays an error. I have now posted it to the shell designer page here: http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/hpvshelldesigner/
shooky56 Posted - 04/06/2016 : 04:56:52
Thanks Warren.

This may be old hat to some. Again apologies but such a short detail doesn't seem to warrant a new thread. Watched a video on testing different things to glue polystyrene together.


There were several that worked well. The two that seem to cover most of my needs for sticking this stuff together were:

Glidden Gripper
+ cheap, not messy, strong (bond stronger than the foam)
- only glues closely mated (i.e. "flat surfaces"), not available everywhere but Home Depot has it

Urethane foam in a can (Great Stuff for example) NOT 2-part urethane (tested that myself, doesn't work).
+ fills cracks even big ones, strong, sands well, get this stuff lots of places
- messy, PITA to reuse even minutes later (dispensing tube plugs quickly)
warren Posted - 04/05/2016 : 15:24:59
Looks great Wayne!
shooky56 Posted - 04/05/2016 : 14:01:08
That kind of looks like a build topic but the point is, this shell is the direct output of the software. The strip patterns are printed on multiple 8.5x11 sheets, laid against an 8 foot straight edge (and ruler) and taped together, taped onto the foam then cut with a razor knife.

The aluminum ruler serves to keep the paper aligned and allows using the inch grid printed on the sheets to keep errors from accumulating along the length.

Never did get my banner printer to track across 10 feet, this is much more accurate until I get a guide working for that thing.

shooky56 Posted - 04/05/2016 : 13:17:58
Been working on a shell. Was working on another delta but want to get a shell for my cattrike done first so the new frame moved to the back burner for a bit.

Here is the right half of the shell. If the nose pieces won't pull in (there are bend slot cut on the back of them), I'll cut off the foam points, fill it in with urethane foam then sand the shape I want. My intent is to sand this smooth and finish it for a plug for a fiberglass one-off. If that fits, it may go to carbon/Kevlar but probably just wait to do carbon for the delta.

shooky56 Posted - 04/03/2016 : 09:41:13
Had an error in my strip code which caused the strips to be too thin toward the rear. On a 9 foot long shell, the error amounted to about quite a bit. The worst case I saw was 3 inches in circumference (1" diameter) but it could have been worse. I'm building an FRP shell and made ribs to hold pink foam strips which will be sanded to a smooth shell shape. The ribs (which were correct) did not quite fit the rear. Up near the foot box, the only part I'd ever checked, the error was so small it was not noticed. It was about 1.5 inches (4cm) circumference. That's about 1/4 inch (6mm) radius. Easy to see how I missed it since a nose cone back to the foot box is the largest I'd made to date.

Fixed but not delivered to Warren yet.
shooky56 Posted - 02/29/2016 : 08:31:27
Thank you arty, had no idea it would run on Linux and you are correct about it pulling in several 3rd party libraries. That is very good news.

Finally got my software building again. It's a rather long story but I ended up with a W7/W10 dual boot. Reinstalled everything on the W7. Had forgotten some of the tricks I had to do to get VS10 to work with XNA so there was a seemingly endless of amount of re-installs. Finally one combination worked. A little path fixing (for dependencies) is required to get any version to compile.

Finally pulled up the Kamm builder release version. Dragging the canopy causes an error. The error goes back several versions (not releases) and haven't figured it out yet. Trying to get back to spending a disciplined amount of time.
artyb Posted - 02/22/2016 : 08:14:38
I think this programme is brilliant-and offering it to the community is also very helpful. I've been trying out various CAD/robotics programmes for years, without much success-I'm really grateful to have it. The way it includes so many helpful aspects such as frame, rider size, pedal movements etc and shell is great. Incidentally it also seemed to run well via WINE on Linux, perhaps surprisingly given the many frameworks it uses, which might be of use to other readers. Looking forward to further refinements etc. I'm not sure how prominently disseminated it has been, I search for news and tools relating to velomobiles fairly regularly and only recently discovered this. Might there be source-code/greater cross-platform planning available sometime?

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