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 Trike time (see pg 5 for build 1)

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
warren Posted - 11/03/2016 : 15:03:21
The gentle reader may ask, "Why don't you just pick a trike and ride it!". Oh, I have reasons gentle reader, reasons.

After riding and racing the Greenspeed Areo, I can say it handles corners well and is fast in a racing environment. I do not however fit in the seat as they are designed for "normal" height humans and major reconstructive surgery would need to be performed to make that happen.

After racing and riding the ICE Vortex (almost a VTX!) I can say that the seat fits me well and it is comfy, but due to a lack of triangulation it does not do well in a racing environment. The VTX is stiffer in the rear and has a seat which can be laid back more that the Vortex so it would be better, but is still has just a monotube and that will allow the rear wheel to deflect in the hard corners.

That leaves the Catrike 700 yet which I not raced or ridden in anger. It is however quite popular in the HPRA racing series. If I were to obtain one, it would need some modification including a hardshell seat to get me a bit lower, and probably a change to indirect steering. If my backside can fit between the seat rails they would make great side bolsters to prevent sliding off the seat in the hard corners.

The final option is of course, building one from scratch.

Here's my web page documenting my racing trike investigation and research.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/trike/default.htm

So, What makes a recumbent trike fast? Build or buy?

25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Speedbiker Posted - 01/20/2018 : 11:02:57
Your original goal was to build a very fast trike. Abandoning OSS puts you back with the stock trikes. I'm sure you can do the surgery necessary to make OSS work.
Tom Schneider Posted - 01/20/2018 : 08:15:36
How about going back to your original setup, but with the steering tube moved forward and the pitman arm on the back side. More crotch clearance and correct steering geometry.

Tom
alevand Posted - 01/20/2018 : 07:12:19
Maybe USS?


C:
Tony Levand
Jerry Posted - 01/18/2018 : 20:01:22
Sorry your steering didn't work out, but am wanting to see how you build the dual side stick steering. Side stick steering would solve a couple of my problems on my trike.
Speedbiker Posted - 01/18/2018 : 19:30:57
Nooo!
warren Posted - 01/18/2018 : 12:17:37
I sat on the trike for the first time last night. Yay! Apparently the handlebar headtube is not going to work in its current location due to nonexistent crotch clearance. Boo! Now I am considering the dual side stick steering again...
alevand Posted - 01/18/2018 : 05:39:25
A link that's bent on one end to clear the steering tube. I've cut the treads off the rod end and welded it to the tube end. 5/8 or 3/4 tube, it worked fine and was on the carp for along time. Adjustment is done on the other end in half turn increments.


C:
Tony Levand
warren Posted - 01/17/2018 : 11:03:56
I was able to get the seat mounted over the past several days and I'm pretty happy that everything looks straight!

I'm not sure I have enough clearance with the seat mounted, but without the seat Tony's "135 degrees to the tangent" method works with my existing steering components to provide limited steering.

I'm still learning as I go and there are several things that need to be fixed.
* Steering linkages
* Slight tweak on left kingpin steering head tube that means I need to unbraze/rebraze it.
* Steerer tubes too short for clamps, just using top caps for bearing compression. Doh!
warren Posted - 01/15/2018 : 14:36:47
Great explanation guys, thank you!

I'm getting used to several rounds of rework at every step on this trike...
Tom Schneider Posted - 01/15/2018 : 11:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Thanks for the input guys, lots of good solutions. Whatever I do I think will require a lot of rework. I think I like the ICE solution the best. Here's a drawing of what I can glean of the ICE geometry.



The odd thing is that there is no traditional Ackerman. Is the Ackerman compensation handled by the wide set handlebar pivot? I can see how that would make the wheels turn at different rate. Hmm.


I think this would work:
As Tony said, keep all the knuckle arms and effective Pitman arm the same length. With the existing long tie-rod installed and and adjusted, measure and record the angle between the knuckle arm and the tie-rod. Free the tie-rod from the knuckles. Attach a new tie-rod to Pitman arm and one knuckle arm. Adjust to keep Pitman arm perpendicular to tie-rod and the knuckle arm at the recorded angle to the tie-rod.
Repeat for the opposite side.
The bad part is you then must move the axles to the correct location on the Knuckles, or you could remount the knuckle arms.
alevand Posted - 01/15/2018 : 08:52:49
I think you make the Pitman arm the same length as the knuckle arms and the inner rod ends have the same offset angle as the knuckle has on Ackerman.


quote:
Originally posted by warren

Thanks for the input guys, lots of good solutions. Whatever I do I think will require a lot of rework. I think I like the ICE solution the best. Here's a drawing of what I can glean of the ICE geometry.



The odd thing is that there is no traditional Ackerman. Is the Ackerman compensation handled by the wide set handlebar pivot? I can see how that would make the wheels turn at different rate. Hmm.



C:
Tony Levand
warren Posted - 01/14/2018 : 20:56:36
Thanks for the input guys, lots of good solutions. Whatever I do I think will require a lot of rework. I think I like the ICE solution the best. Here's a drawing of what I can glean of the ICE geometry.



The odd thing is that there is no traditional Ackerman. Is the Ackerman compensation handled by the wide set handlebar pivot? I can see how that would make the wheels turn at different rate. Hmm.
Tom Schneider Posted - 01/13/2018 : 21:38:17
Another simple(almost) solution,use the long tie rod that connects one wheel to the other.
You will need to weld/attach another steering arm in front of the wheel spindle to match the steering bracket arm angle with both perpendicular to the line between the wheel spindle and the steering bracket. That centers the right/left travel.
Then use the a tie rod that goes from the new wheel steering arm to the steering bracket.
The geometry stays as you designed.
Johnsfwdbent Posted - 01/13/2018 : 19:34:26
Warren, how about switching the spindles from side to side, then you will have the tie rods in front of the axle .
You can then lengthen your steering bracket to reach. It might make the steering too responsive, but hey you gotta try it.
Try the simplest solutions first!
jjackstone Posted - 01/13/2018 : 10:42:00
Maybe you've already seen this page. It has a number of trike steering ideas.

http://www.ihpva.org/projects/tstrike/steering.htm


JJ
warren Posted - 01/13/2018 : 08:39:52
Hmm, I'll try that Tony and also I have a complicated solution if that doesn't work.

Terry, I would be interested in a tutorial in how you made your tubes.

I removed the compression layers from outside the CF tube, Yes, it's wrinkly. Hey, it's a look! This morning it was 3 degrees F outside. Cold enough? After leaving the tube outside a while I brought it in and tapped it with a hammer. Part did not fall off. Smacked it on some wood to see if gravity would do some work for me. Hey, it moved! Put it back outside a while then clamped the aluminum tube in my vice and tugged on the CF part. It wasn't easy but it slid off! Yay! And yes, the CF tube does slide over the steel boom tube fairly easily.



Here's one complicated solution to the steering conundrum.


Also I like the ICE VTX remote steering and think I could use that for this trike. I need to find one to take some measurements from so I can replicate it. It doesn't appear to use traditional Ackerman?

alevand Posted - 01/13/2018 : 07:31:03
I think you can just turn it to the other side of the toggle, something like 135 degrees to the tangent, the Pitman arm might need to be a little longer.

C:
Tony Levand
LunaticFringe Posted - 01/12/2018 : 19:01:37
Cool project!

Jeff
Tom Schneider Posted - 01/12/2018 : 15:28:23
Another tie-rod, same as the one connecting the wheel to the steering arm, for the wheel on the other side to connect to the steering arm. This would replace the long tie-rod connecting the wheels. Your photo shows the tie-rods as parallel, so the geometry should probably be good.

warren Posted - 01/12/2018 : 14:29:49
I guess I'm not understanding that first sentence Tom. OMG! YES the steering is reversed! How did I not notice that?
Tom Schneider Posted - 01/12/2018 : 10:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Hi Harv - That would be easier but I think the angle of the rods would change, which would throw off the geometry.



You could attach the other tie-rod to the bottom of steering arm with the same bolt that attaches the other side tie-rod to the top. The geometry would probably be OK.
Is the steering reversed, or am I looking at it wrong?

Tom
Terry Posted - 01/12/2018 : 10:11:31
quote:
Originally posted by warren

The tube is laid up now. It took less time than I thought (about an hour). 1 sq yard of CF plus 16 squirts of West Systems epoxy. I'm not impressed with the heat shrink tubing. I think it's compressing the part a little, and it's not smooth. Also the tiny holes don't seem to be weeping any epoxy. We'll see what happens.

Later I wrapped it in a layer of bleeder cloth and then a couple layer of tightly wound packing tape. I can see it weeping now. It may not be pretty but at least the layers will be compressed.



Warren, I am experimenting with the same technique on the carbon boom for my wood WAW. Although I made the tubes with an inner bladder and a 1 1/2 " pvc tube, joining them and compressing with tape.
I have been just wrapping the tape sticky side down and then poking holes after it is wrapped! So far so good!
16 squirts seems like a lot!
Fingers crossed !!
Terry
warren Posted - 01/12/2018 : 08:18:08
Hi Harv - That would be easier but I think the angle of the rods would change, which would throw off the geometry.
harv Posted - 01/12/2018 : 05:35:29
Warren, you have a short top steering link and a another lower link. Could you eliminate the full length lower steering rod, by using a pair of top steering links?
Speedbiker Posted - 01/11/2018 : 22:49:30
Thanks!

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