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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2008 :  05:17:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll be doing a test of the 1/4 mile course at Great Lakes Dragaway in Union Grove WI this Thursday night after work if anyone wants to go. http://www.greatlakesdragaway.com/

I'm not sure when I can run, but I think I'll be ready to go by 6:30 or so. I went to see the races last week and the course looks ideal. It's $12.00 for a spectator to get in.

If it goes well I'll plan another day to go for the IHPVA record with the appropriate wind measurement and observers etc.

Sean

sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  06:50:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The timing curse continues to follow me around. Instead of getting a 1/4 mile time I was given an 1/8 mile time. Soon after it started to rain and I didn't get a 2nd run.

Here is how the timeslip reads
R/T .624 (not counted in the ET)
60' 3.5 sec
330 10.6
1/8 17.0998
MPH 36.69 (this timing trap is 60ft prior to the 1/8mile mark)

The track was stickier than a frathouse floor on Sunday morning.
Weather Conditions were ideal.
My computer said I maxed at 39.7 mph which is considerably lower than I expected and slower than what I can do on the velodrome.

If I averaged 38.5 for the last 1/8 then my 1/4 mile time would be approx. 28.6 sec.
If I averaged 38.0 for the last 1/8 them my 1/4 mile time would be approx. 28.9 sec.

The WR is 26.9.
I'm as much as 2 seconds of the record pace. That is considerable.
There are things to tweak and I'm not giving up, but this is going to be harder than I expected.

Sean


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warren
human power expert

USA
6030 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  07:27:18  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Sean,

Good job getting out there and running on the track. Were they drag racing cars last night?

I think that most of the drag race tracks have switched to 1/8 mile for safety reasons.

-Warren.
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raymondg
recumbent guru

865 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  09:07:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean,
All things considered, I would say 28'ish is an excellent time. I am curious about the "R/T .624(not counted in the ET" though. For the 26.9" WR, was it timed this way? Also, since your max on the speedo was 39.7, but only 36.69 60ft shy of 1/8, it seems you were still accelerating at the 1/8. Given the low drag of the NoCom, is it possible that your second 1/8 was closer to 39 than 38 mph?

Anyway, I still think your "slow 1/8" and trouble getting up to top speed are easily explained by the sticky surface, the full work day preceding, and the 9 pm start time. I still believe it is possible, but the record was set in a streamliner with a very fit athlete and did have an exit speed of ~47 mph, so like you say, tweak some things, this is going to be harder than expected. Don't give up!
Raymond
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  10:53:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The R/T is reaction time. I assume the time after green to when the 1st of two start light beams makes contact again. I was told by the starter that it was not set up to start timing until I moved.

They were running all kinds of vehicles last night. One guy even ran his snowmobile.

Sean
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ncaudio
recumbent enthusiast

202 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  12:03:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I used to live in Racine and ran at Great Lakes, my best time in the 1/4 mile was 13.4 @ 108.5 in a somewhat modified 944 Turbo.
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teubner
recumbent guru

796 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  13:36:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've owned cars that I doubt would do a sub 30-second 1/4 mile.
But the power/weight was probably much inferior to Sean.

Edited by - teubner on 08/22/2008 13:37:58
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Grasshopper
recumbent guru

USA
511 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  13:40:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I used to run in the 80's with my 1985,turbo charged,Dodge Omni GLH
(stands for "Goes Like Hell") and 1987 Dodge Shelby Shadow which was turbo and intercooled. Ahh, the good old days at Great Lakes.

Sean, let us know when you plan to go back. I'd like to take some pictures.

Chris

quote:
Originally posted by ncaudio

I used to live in Racine and ran at Great Lakes, my best time in the 1/4 mile was 13.4 @ 108.5 in a somewhat modified 944 Turbo.


Edited by - Grasshopper on 08/22/2008 13:44:05
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  14:44:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had never been to a dragstrip prior to 2 weeks ago. It was great fun. My favorite was seeing this 175 mph AMC Gremlin in action.

www.carcraft.com/.../1974_amc_gremlin.html

The people there treated me extremely well. The track manager drove me around in his golf cart and told me what I had to do. They even gave me a free Coke. Everyone was really impressed-they thought I did a 17 second 1/4 mile (they could only see me at the start and the timing sign didn't distinguish between 1/8 and 1/4 mile.) There was even a track cyclist there who I chatted with for some time.

Much better treatment than a USA Cycling cycling who has not responded to my complaint.

NHRA Rocks!

Sean
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3677 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  15:06:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With tons of possible refinement in gearing, aerodynamics, technique, and top speed, I see another record for Mr. Costin in the near future.

Sean, did you line up on the sticky tire tracks? Or less sticky middle groove?

Thom
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2840 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2008 :  16:27:35  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I ran my 1968 AMC Javelin SST there once in 1977. It did 14s
When I rode through Milwaukee on the way to Door county last month, this Mazda Miata went by and it sounded like a V8. When it took off from the stop light there was no doubt.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=hsh4cEhEWlg

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=gncfIvMRdSs&feature=related


http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=bjZFfp4j3q8&feature=related
C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 08/22/2008 16:50:48
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2008 :  06:02:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thom,
I lined up in the middle, which I was told was less sticky. However, I think it was bumpier. I might need to run in the afternoon before they put down the VHT. The right tire track is supposed to be a little stickier since the power goes there first, so The left tire track would be better. I was told the right side so sticky that it will take your shoe off.

I didn't hear or feel the stickiness of the track, but these are loud places. It was dark and the road surface was very dark. I was totally focused on power output, so I really don't know how much this may have slowed me. There was no shortage of technical advice at the track. Everyone seemed to have an opinion about it.

Sean


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EricksonRacing
recumbent enthusiast

335 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2008 :  08:16:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony, in the first Video you see my parts of my motorcycle commute!
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3800 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2008 :  12:22:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its true that the IHPVA record is 26.9 seconds, but I was wondering what was the fastest a really powerhouse upright rider might have done the 1/4 mile. In recent years, the world's best Kilometer rider has been Scotland's Chris Hoy. He won the Olympic Gold in Athens in 2004, and set the current low-altitude mark. He came with 5/1000ths of a second of setting the world record at high-altitude Boliva. He won the Wolrd Championship in 2007 on the Manchester velodrome. Using YouTube and other published sources, where the split times were given on various laps, I interpolated data to get the following estimated 1/4 mile times.

Chris Hoy 1/4 mile estimated times
2004 Athens Olympics, 1/4 mile estimate = 26.17 sec, low-altitude record, Gold medal. Finish = 1:00.711
2007 Record Attempt, 1/4 mile estimate = 26.19 sec, 2nd-fastest ever, Finish = 58.88
2007 World Championships, 1/4 mile estimate = 26.27 sec Finish = 1:00.999

I'll note that I have split times for the early laps of the world record holder Arnaud Tournant, and Chris's first lap splits are consistenly faster than everyone's else' making him in my opinion the fastest ever 1/4 mile person on a bicycle. His speeds were over 42 mph for some splits on these runs.
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Gugi100
New Member

Netherlands
80 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2008 :  14:38:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Sean,

You are rather fast on those first meters! I have got some technical questions, do you switch gear or is the bike in fixed gear setup? If fixed gear which? How is the frame flex during the "take of"?

Succes with this project.

Greetings Gert-Jan

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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3800 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2008 :  14:53:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_2HQ7C0YY Great Kilometer racing footage at the 2004 Athens Olympics. Each ride just keeps getting faster and faster!
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sean costin
human power supergeek

Lesotho
1999 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2008 :  12:32:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gert-Jan,
I think I'd like to do no more than 5 rear wheel gear shifts. Each shift causes a momentary power interruption. I think I was running a 53x34 to start. I've been practicing on my computrainer and it is an excellent tool for this type of event since I can record and see my previous best performance in the lane next to me. In the few tests I've done I peak at 880 Watts measured at the rear wheel and my high RPM is 123. Today I'll be switching to conventional cranks to see which will provide the most power.

I am convinced that frame is stealing significant watts which is why I'm looking to develop a method of testing for frame flex.

It would also help if lose 10lbs.

Sean


quote:
Originally posted by Gugi100

Hi Sean,

You are rather fast on those first meters! I have got some technical questions, do you switch gear or is the bike in fixed gear setup? If fixed gear which? How is the frame flex during the "take of"?

Succes with this project.

Greetings Gert-Jan



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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
403 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2008 :  03:01:28  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren
I think that most of the drag race tracks have switched to 1/8 mile for safety reasons.



Top Fuel & Funny Car dropped to 1000 feet earlier this year following the death of Scott Kalitta, but the other classes we get on the telly over here - Pro Stock & Pro Stock Motorcycle - still run 1/4 mile.

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3800 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2008 :  03:41:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We hope to run a 1/4 mile drag races at the Ford Michigan event this year. Also I'd like to run a Straight-line Kilo. Perhaps with the proper timing equipment, we can even get a 1/4 mile split during the Kilo. The last straight-line Kilo event in major competition that I know of occured at Interlaken in 1999. Sandro Bolina led three fully faired machines under the magic one minute mark. His best was 58.13 seconds in his Lightning X-2, hence edging out Arnaud Tourant 58.875 and Chris Hoy 58.880 for the title of the fastest bicycle kilometer in the world!
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3800 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2008 :  03:50:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Conventional wisdom tells me that having multiple gears would be an advantage for 1/4 drag or Kilo event. I've never tried a fixed gear in any of these events. I wonder if a "powerhouse" rider like Chris Hoy would simply snap a conventional drivetrain or cause the chain to downshift under enormous pedal torque at the start. Hence I could see one reason why UCI riders use fixed gears. Are fixed gear bikes supposedly more stiff than a bike with conventional drivetrain.

I wonder how fast Chris Hoy could go if he had a small upright fairing like I used to ride with/or without a fixed gear. My narrow fairing had an upright aerobar attached to a cut-off section of straight bar through the stem. This prevented a wider drop bar useful for gripping and standing on the pedals at the start. You'll see that all the pro track bikes have such a bar even during the hour. They carry around that extra bit of drag producing handlebar, and use it only at the start. I did pull on the cut-off section of straight bar at the start, then dropped down onto the aerobars where my shifters where located. Shifter placement is important on a drag bike. I used only a single 58 tooth chainring and a 11-28 rear cassette. I think my rpms went about 140 rpm during the event. A late shift into my 2nd from highest gear probably cost me some time. I should have just kept hammering in my 3rd cog. Dennis Grelk was just behind me on a Rick Gritters steel lowracer. He got the 4th fastest time.

With my upright fairing and multiple gears, I did 30.93 seconds (for 3rd place) in the quarter-mile at Battle Mountain in 2005, peaking at about 36 mph. Still I was soundly beaten a Canadian national team member, Mat Chater who did 28.6 seconds I believe. Sam Whittingham did 29 seconds on his unfaired Baron lowracer. In 2003, Matjaz Leskovar, on a borrowed Easy Racer with front windshield did 27+ seconds almost setting a new record while beating me on an upright Moulton. A few years prior to that Matjaz had finished 5th in Europe in the UCI Kilometer sprint. His best time was a 1:03, I believe, on an UCI track bike. So we're talking about some real powerhouses that have participated in this event. I wonder what Jason Queally, 2000 Olympic gold medalist in the Kilometer, might have done in the 1/4 mile at Battle Mountain. I don't think we had it that year he was out there. Sean with a small upright fairing and myself with a small front fairing had an upright vs upright battle long ago (1991 in Milwaukee?) and again he beat me, though I do remember my chain derailling part-way through the run!

Edited by - Upright Mike on 12/01/2008 04:25:00
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2008 :  07:27:30  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
880 watts? That's pretty sweet :) When they did your power tests during your LowBoy racing training last year, what was the duration for it and at what heart rate? 20 minutes at 90% MHR?

I watched the video for the 1Km olympic races. Amazing. I was sitting there holding my breath while watching them. I wonder what their criteria for gear selection is. The largest gears they can turn at their most efficient cadence for 60 seconds? Nice thing about multiple gears is you have options, but the penalty might be al ittel extra drag. The other thing, as Sean mentioned, is you need to train for sprinting because it's a totally different animal. At the 200m sprint in Waterford, due to nerves and lack of practice, I missed my shift on my lowracer and put myself in one gear too high. I mentally wrestled with the option of losing "power time" by downshifting one, or trying to tough it out and spin up in the gear that was too high. I picked the latter and my cadence, speed and time suffered as a result. Anything that I'm going to race in any kind fo sprint format this year, is going to have trigger shifters. Indexing is the key to efficiency for me, so I don't need to be thinking about feathering the shifter, but bar cons and twist shifter tend to impart steering input when I get to teh edge, or a little tired.

Looking through all those old IHPVA newsletters again, it's amazing how streamer trikes were running against, and winning, against streamlined 2 wheelers. Interesting how finally a watershed moment was reached with the 2 wheelers, and then the trikes were out of the running. I'd also love to know where a lot of those streamliners ended up and where the riders are now.
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nyh
recumbent enthusiast

Netherlands
181 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2008 :  00:17:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike
The last straight-line Kilo event in major competition that I know of occured at Interlaken in 1999.

Well, we have the straight line kilo at the world championships 2006 in France, 2007 in Belgium and in England this year:
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=191
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=258
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=299

France and England had strong winds. In Belgium it was an up hill race in wet conditions.

And that is the main problem with a straight line 1k: it is very hard to meet wind conditions.

Hans Wessels

Edited by - nyh on 12/02/2008 00:18:07
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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
403 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2008 :  01:32:26  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nyh

quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike
The last straight-line Kilo event in major competition that I know of occured at Interlaken in 1999.

Well, we have the straight line kilo at the world championships 2006 in France, 2007 in Belgium and in England this year:
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=191
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=258
http://www.ligfiets.net/agenda/race.php?id=299



Also in Switzerland in 1999 (Sean was there)

http://www.futurebike.ch/FB_Web_WM99/events/wm99/results.html

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2523 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2008 :  07:30:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think people ride harder in a quarter mile race than a kilo. I would not expect to see a quarter mile record set during a kilo.

In a quarter, you sprint at 100% for 20 seconds, then blow up and hang on to the end.
In a kilo, you sprint at "90%" as you know you have to keep it up for a full minute (or 80 seconds for us slower folk).

Plots of power vs. time are a good way to illustrate this.

Track riders are relegated to fixed gear bikes because of the rules, and no other reason. Stronger chains, cranks, cogs, frames can be easily made. A good 5 seconds is wasted in the first 400 meters with a fixed gear bike. The kilo record would be in the lower 50s if multi-geared bikes were allowed.

Larry Lem
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Tim Leier
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2008 :  13:07:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Back in 1984 at the Olympics, Steve Bauer had a tricked out km track bike where he had different rear cogs on either side of the rear wheel with a double chain ring crank. I'm not sure exactly how it worked but it appeared that he could start out on a smaller gear and would then "move" to a higher faster gear as he over-ran the first - all without external derailuers. Very tricky - I believe that the bike is still on display at the Ontario Science Center in Toronto.

I will try to find a photo or comemntary on it - I believe Steve placed well in the competition (no medal though) but my guess is that the unorthodoxy of it scared everyone away in the absence of a nail-on verification of better performance.
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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
403 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2008 :  01:40:11  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Leier
I will try to find a photo or comemntary on it - I believe Steve placed well in the competition (no medal though) but my guess is that the unorthodoxy of it scared everyone away in the absence of a nail-on verification of better performance.



Or else the UCI noticed and promptly banned it

(Googles)

"1.3.025 Freewheels, multiple gears and brakes are not permitted for use on the track during competition or training."

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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