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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  18:58:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
December 11, 2008

Re: IHPVA name and organization call for support

Dear HPV racing community,

Like many of you, I was a member of the IHPVA and later the HPVA after the restructuring. I joined the HPVA board in hopes that I could improve racing opportunities and provide a racer’s perspective to the board of directors.

It has been 10 years since the restructuring of the IHPVA into an association of national associations and member organizations. During that time, the board of the restructured IHPVA did not put together a group of bylaws, incorporate, create a membership, generate funding, and allowed the records committee and the website to languish. In short, HPV racers and builders and organizers have not been helped by the IHPVA reorganization.

In the mean time, the HPVA came back to their racing and record setting roots. We adopted the Human Powered Speed Challenge in Battle Mountain and created a new hour event in Casa Grande, AZ which seems to be inspiring an incredible new event at the Ford Test track in Romeo, MI this summer. It seems that IHPVA World Record activity is at or near an all-time high. These international events allow racers to compete and set records at lower cost and provide an ideal environment for information sharing and community building among racers and builders. The HPVA has been responsible for raising and distributing tens of thousands of dollars in prize money, providing volunteers, officials, timing systems and organizational structure to provide successful events. Our legal incorporation as a non-profit helps us to operate and handle funding efficiently.

Recently we have created Vice President of representative affiliated organization positions
which will serve as a point of contact for national/regional or specific interest hpv groups. We feel that this will improve coordination and communication with respect to record attempts and events and promote standardized record attempt procedures around the world. These representative positions are being created to address the issues that brought about the reorganization in the first place. Most importantly we have created a new records committee chaired by Bill Gaines which will be more efficient that in the past.

Over a year ago, a quorum of HPVA members voted to take back the IHPVA name, which was still legally registered to us, and we have started using it again. We have told the Reorganized IHPVA-chaired by Richard Ballantine of our intent to take back the name, but he and the other national representatives have resisted giving up the name and refused to surrender the IHPVA.ORG site despite the fact that it belongs to the HPVA as part of the IHPVA Reorganization agreement 10 years ago.

We have been able to convince the Webhost to give us the site back in the very near future which will promptly be overhauled and made useful again.

Sadly, Richard Ballantine has been publicly against the progress we have made at Battle Mountain. He recently wrote this commentary to the other board members:
quote:
An important point to keep in mind is that Brian Wilson has resigned from running the IHPVA web site. Whether we seek to recover IHPVA.org, or open a new site with a different name, someone will have to run and maintain the site. That means having clear objectives. Do we promote technological innovation and development for human powered vehicles by sanctioning competitions and record attempts? Would we perhaps like to expand to promoting more general use of human powered vehicles?

Setting straight-line speed records is a specialised activity, limited to a few competitors. There is only one site and one event -- Battle Mountain -- at which it is possible to set a world record. This is of interest to the top competitors, but not to the majority of HPV enthusiasts. Any effective promotion of human powered vehicles has to move beyond Battle Mountain, and beyond the limited activities of the HPVA. After all, Battle Mountain is a premier site not because of technological innovation, but simply because of geography; the 5-mile run-up provides some 200 Watts of power assist from gravity.

It is said that when one door closes, another opens. The take-over of IHPVA.org by Al Krause and the HPVA could be an opportunity to initiate change and new approaches to promoting human powered vehicles. There is a lot of positive energy and vitality in the European HPV organisations, and indeed, right around the world to Down Under (Australia). I would like to see us actively promote human powered vehicles to new members in new countries.
End Quote

From this you can clearly read in his own words that Richard Ballantine lacks respect for the hard earned records and technological achievements at Battle Mountain, which I find very upsetting. Nor does he seem to have a clear direction his organization should be going.

The HPVA Board is resolute in our conviction to be the one and only IHPVA. To protect the validity of OUR records, there must be one recognized authority. This is why I am asking all past and present racers, organizers, and racing event volunteers to publicly state their support for the HPVA to take back the IHPVA name and IHPVA.ORG website.

I feel that a decisive response from the racing community will help end this dispute quickly and we can focus our energies on the business of organizing, sanctioning and recognizing record setting events as well as publishing HPV News and Human Power. It has been emotionally draining as we know that all parties are dedicated well intentioned leaders who would prefer to concentrate on constructive endeavors.

Regardless if you are an HPVA member, all you need to do is email me back that you support our actions and I will have your name published on the HPVA.US site and soon the IHPVA.ORG site. Use the Email address IHPVALAND@gmail.com

Your fellow racer and advocate,

Sean Costin

IHPVA VP Land

P.S. This is already a very long post. Please use this forum to ask questions and express opinions and I will do my best to respond as necessary.

Edited by - sean costin on 12/11/2008 20:42:01

Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1272 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  20:04:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Uhh... could you clarify what portion of that statement are from Sean and what is from Richard Ballentine?


__________________
Jeff Wills:
2002 GRR (polished)
1998 Tour Easy (black)
1991 Lightning P-38 (black)
K2 Evo 3.0 FS MTB (red/white)
Fort 2x1000 'cross bike (olive)
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Steelman fixie (pearl blue)
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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  20:43:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry for the confusion. Mr. Ballantine's quote is in italic

Sean
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Jack
New Member

Netherlands
50 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  23:21:02  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sean,
i would be very worried to support an organisation that has one surname for chairman, treasurer and editor. These important roles are all gather in one person. This person is furthermore a master in the manupulation of information. I worked on an article for www.ligfiets.net and links to the other side of the story can be found www.ligfiets.net/nieuws/bericht.php3?id=2751&volledig=1" target="_blank">http://www.ligfiets.net/nieuws/bericht.php3?id=2751&volledig=1 and www.ligfiets.net/nieuws/bericht.php3?id=2737&taal=en&volledig=1" target="_blank">http://www.ligfiets.net/nieuws/bericht.php3?id=2737&taal=en&volledig=1

I will give the readers of this forum the most important data from this pieces.
Al Krause was part of the IHPVA and was against formalisation, one of the big issues that he presents now as an idea of his own.
All other important hpv groups in the world have rejected the action to raid the name IHPVA and also want to be no part of this new initiative. For the moment their voice can be found on www.hupi.org/" target="_blank">http://www.hupi.org/. Mr. Krause and his fellow seems to be a master in manipulation of information, wikipedia was altered to give only one side of the information and all other sites are carefully cleaned for information on other links.

Jack

Edited by - Jack on 12/13/2008 18:16:45
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nyh
recumbent enthusiast

Netherlands
181 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  02:41:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Vrede op aarde
Vrede op aarde
In de mensen een welbehagen."
From a Dutch Christmas song.

I think we should stop acting foolish and stop the cyber war.

Think about it: were are we fighting over?

Less than a year ago the IHPVA was all but death. Nothing happened on the IHPVA.org website. After Ben Wichers Scheur resigned from the IHPVA board as Dutch representative he wasn't replaced by a new one. Nobody seemed to care.

See at the way back machine for the bad state the www.ihpva.org website was in at the end of 2007:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ihpva.org

So yes, I can understand Al Krause moving the whole IHPVA organization back into the US HPV organization. The way it was done doesn't get any points for beauty. But something had to be done.

Some of us waked a little bit up when the new record rules were posted. They were very US centric and not workable for non US record teams.

Only when Richard Ballantine started with his e-mail session about the IHPVA.org website take over the rest of us waked up.

We don't need a new international HPV organization We let the old organization die. Most national organizations have a hard time finding volunteers and organizing local races.

We do need a body for setting the HPV record rules and recognizing the HPV records. The old rules of the IHPVA were fine. Only the new US centric rules are not. At the Battle Mountain record races I spoke about this problem and it isn't such a big problem.

So let us make peace with our friends in the US.
Let us make sure everybody can set records:
* Membership of a national HPV organization should be enough, if there is no local HPV organization: join the IHPVA.
* Insurance should be the responsibility of the record team and the record committee shouldn't be liable.
* Timing should be adequate, but no specifics on equipment should be in the rules.
* An international body for approval of the records would be fine, volunteers can apply by sending an e-mail to Al Krause.

For records in a restricted class: the WRRA is doing a good enough job although I fore see some problems in the unfaired class definitions, I think there is still some work needed in this respect. But there is no need for a new organization here either.

Hans Wessels
WRRA record tail faired 1 h TT: 53.019 km
WRRA record tail faired 1000 m TT: 1:07.22 min:s
Dutch hour record open class: 81.6 km
Dutch 200 m sprint record open class: 118.29 km/h

"The one thing were all waiting for
Is peace on earth and an end to war
Its a miracle we need - the miracle
The miracle peace on earth and end to war today"
(Queen)
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  03:23:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would like to state the following from memory:

Under the direction of Carole Leone, in 1998 the board of the original (Californian) IHPVA authorised a name change from IHPVA to HPVA and the simultanious creation of a new international organisation with the inherited name IHPVA. Members were the national HPV organisations in Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, and USA (the HPVA itself).

I was the first chairman of the reorganised IHPVA. During my term the international IHPVA also had a bank account and a secretariat maintained by the HPVA. The HPVA and other members paid in to this account something like 1$ per individual member. Some years later, the secretary Jean Anderson Seay resigned and wasn't replaced. Ben Wichers Schreur (NL) became chairman of the international IHPVA and later Richard Ballantine in London. The little money held in trust was I believe used up to pay webmaster and host Brian Wilson and previous secretary Jean Andserson Seay for their expenses. The international IHPVA continued without a bank account, with expenses being paid by Richard Ballantine and Brian Wilson directly.

Meanwhile the HPVA had several changes of board members and Al Krause, a long-time opponent of the reorganisation, became HPVA president. The HPVA withdrew its membership in the IHPVA about 2004. The HPVA renamed itself back to IHPVA in spite of the continued existence of the international IHPVA. The international IHPVA board voted to keep its name, so there were now two IHPVAs. This was silly but could be tolerated. On 5th December 2008 Al Krause seized control of the domain name ihpva.org and on 12th December changed the DNS to point to a travesty of the original site, in the process breaking countless links. A pre-12.12.2008 mirror is still available at whpva.org. and previous years of ihpva.org are also recorded at archive.org. The American IHPVA claims that the international IHPVA doesn't exist, which is obviously false. A new user or sockpuppet called Foundersfriend on 5th December 2008 also started an edit war about the content of the wikipedia entry on IHPVA and keeps removing any mention of the international IHPVA.

Part of the conflict is also due to differences of opinion between the American IHPVA and the international IHPVA regarding speed records and copyrights.

The name conflict might have been resolved by a change of name of the international IHPVA to WHPVA. However the international IHPVA board voted against this.

The main casulty of the present conflict are the countless links to content on ihpva.org which are now broken.

Best regards, Theo Schmidt
Present editor Human Power eJournal
Former editor Human Power
Former chairman IHPVA
Former member rules and records commitee (for water vehicles)
Former IHPVA board member for Future Bike Switzerland
Former vice president Future Bike Switzerland
Former IHPVA vice president for hybrid power
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  05:18:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean Costin wrote:

> It has been 10 years since the restructuring of the IHPVA into an
> association of national associations and member organizations.
> During that time, the board of the restructured IHPVA did not put
> together a group of bylaws, incorporate, create a membership,
> generate funding, and allowed the records committee and the website > to languish.

The international IHPVA is an "international agreement" and hence does not require bylaws or incorporation documents, although they would have been useful in this conflict. The legal form is that of a treaty with a protocol. The protocol is the reorganisation documentation and the ongoing messages on Pedalwiki (which is now broken, thanks to the domain name hijack.) The membership consists of the national HPV clubs of the following countries:
* Australia
* Belgium
* Denmark
* Finland
* France
* Germany
* Great Britain
* Netherlands
* Sweden
* Switzerland

Prior to 2004, the HPVA was also a member.


> In short, HPV racers and builders and organizers have not been
> helped by the IHPVA reorganization.

Although the reorganisation is less effective than we hoped, in part due to the continuing conflicts, there was an internationally agreed channel of communication for organising event dates and for general issues, not just racing, on the previous website.


> Most importantly we have created a new records committee chaired by > Bill Gaines which will be more efficient that in the past.

I was part of the old record committee also chaired by Bill Gaines. While I value his work, there is one thing he was not (any more than any of us :-) ): efficient.


> Over a year ago, a quorum of HPVA members voted to take back the
> IHPVA name, which was still legally registered to us, and we have
> started using it again....

This is perfectly all right, but silly, as the international IHPVA board voted to keep using the name IHPVA as well.


> and refused to surrender the IHPVA.ORG site despite the fact that it > belongs to the HPVA as part of the IHPVA Reorganization agreement 10 > years ago.

I will have to look up what was then agreed on. Locically the name change of the original IHPVA to HPVA involved a further domain which could have been hpva.org but was actually hvpa.us. You could have prevented the present mess by registering a new domain ihpva.us.

> We have been able to convince the Webhost to give us the site back
> in the very near future which will promptly be overhauled and made
> useful again.

Not the Webhost, the registrar godaddy.com. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but it seems underhanded to me. Certainly Godaddy didn't bother to contact Richard Ballantine and didn't give Brian Wilson sufficient time to respond to the impending unfriendly takeover. Also, Godaddy didn't bother to regard any international perspectives.


> Sadly, Richard Ballantine has been publicly against the progress we > have made at Battle Mountain...

This is of course part of the whole conflict. Many of us think that the Battle Mountain site, which provides about 200 W gravity assist to top racers, is no longer a reflection for a pure human power record and is also too remote for most of the world to go to in order to set up records. It is fine to continue to honour the existing Battle Mountain records, but it is high time to start a new category without the gravity assist. I'm not saying this will solve the problem completely - because there will then be some other site which fits the rules best. Also, the highest speed record is only one of very many records.


> The HPVA Board is resolute in our conviction to be the one and only
> IHPVA. To protect the validity of OUR records, there must be one
> recognized authority. This is why I am asking all past and present
> racers, organizers, and racing event volunteers to publicly state
> their support for the HPVA to take back the IHPVA name and IHPVA.ORG > website.

Now it seems that there are two competing ones. I guess the American IHPVA will mostly record records done in America and the international IHPVA will mostly record records done elsewhere, particularly in Europe. I don't think it matters much as long as the conditions of the records are accurately recorded.

Please note that the most recent table of records was done by Chris Broome in November this year and is presently still available at http://www.whpva.org/Records/ even though http://www.ihpva.org/Records/ is now broken.

So Sean, I'm sorry to dissapoint you. As the former organiser of the 1999 water event in Interlaken, I'm not in favour of the American IHPVA being the sole maintainer of all HPV records.

Best regards, Theo


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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

670 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  08:03:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Theo wrote:
"The little money held in trust was I believe used up to pay webmaster and host Brian Wilson and previous secretary Jean Andserson Seay for their expenses."

this is false,
the funds were held in a seperate account by Carole Leone, not the IHPVA bank account, ALL the funds were returned in total to the original donor.
Theo needs to provide proof and not tell stories from what he can recall.

look out the Board has grown a spine!

AL
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  08:33:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Al wrote:
> the funds were held in a seperate account by Carole Leone, not the IHPVA bank account,
> ALL the funds were returned in total to the original donor.
> Theo needs to provide proof and not tell stories from what he can recall.

I think Al is correct here, apart from the wrong label. I havn't access to my records at present.

Theo
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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

670 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  10:30:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

From Alice Krause, (also posted on companion thread)
There is more confusion, misinformation and plain propaganda here than I know how to address. Newest to oldest I guess.

The links were changed by Al to point to the whpva site so there would be no loss of information. I don't know who broke them, but we did not. Al did change the 1st page, but changed it again last night after Richard claimed plagiarism.

In 1994 the ihpva.org site was purchased by and owned by the original IHPVA. We changed our name to HPVA after the re-org.
Brian Wilson assisted and help maintain the website as a volunteer before and after the re-org. Mark Newell also was webmaster with Brian. Mark Newell died a few years back and Brian was then assisted by Chris Broome when he had time.

In 2003 Brian moved the hosting service from Network Solutions to GoDaddy and changed the contact name on the account. He paid with his own credit card locking out the access to the account by anyone who didn't know the last 4 digits of his card. The IHPVA (now the HPVA) was still the legal registant of the site but had no access. Brian later changed the contact name to Richard Ballantine.

Occasionally Brian would give the passwords to Chris Broome to update the records page. Often the changes would not be there later.
Chris attempted a few months ago to again fix the records page and found his access severely restricted.

Recently the site has been used by Richard Ballantine as a propaganda bully pulpit to trash talk the IHPVA. Enough was enough.

I called godaddy and was put in contact with the legal dept. I supplied them with many documents showing our non profit status, registry of charitable trust ID #, Name change documents (before and after) and my ID with documentation showing I was on the board of directors. They looked into the history of the site and confirmed that the IHPVA was still the legal registrant and owner. They gave me the tools to change the contact information. I registered the contact as the name of the non profit IHPVA with the corporate bank account and credit card. The site is not in my name, Al's name or any other single person.

The mission of the IHPVA in it's original form and again now, is an association of INDIVIDUALS not countries, not representatives, not clubs. Everyone is welcome. Anyone can join (or not) as they see fit. If the IHPVA is asked to sanction a World record the rider and one team member needs to join. The official observers from any country even if they also belong to a National club, would also need to be members. Membership costs 32-37.00 US for one year. Considering the huge cost of building, racing and traveling to compete or set a record it seems like a small fee. If the records committee of Bill Gaines, Chet Kyle, Matjaz Leskovar, Hans van Vugt, and Mike Mowett were to bill for their professional time for the hours they spend processing a world record, teams would be paying thousands of dollars per hour.

I'll end with this analogy about the website:

You buy a bike. Your friend volunteers to help you store and maintain it.
This works well for years.
You and your friend have a distancing of your relationship.
Your friend won't let you have your bike.
Your friend says since he maintained and stored it it belongs to him.
Your friend gives your bike to someone else.
You ask the friend's new friend to give it back.
They refuse saying it is now their bike.
You call the police.
They ask you to prove you own the bike.
You do.
The police give you your bike back.

Without this conflict I personally would have spent much more time promoting HPV's in all forms.
As a boardmenber and Treasurer I am under obligation to protect and defend the assets of the non profit corporation called the IHPVA.

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warren
human power expert

USA
6311 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  10:31:49  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So... What is the bone of contention here?

Just the website? It is in a transition phase right now and will be fixed soon. The new site will be updated more regularly and (hopefully) look a whole lot better. It wasn't being updated before so that wasn't working. It will now so everybody should be happy.

New US centric rules? Sorry I try to stay out of this IHPVA stuff so I'm not aware of those. Please list the rule changes and what the issues are.

The IHPVA was created to promote human powered accomplishments, not for politics.

As Hans noted, there is no reason to fight about this stuff, lets just make it work.


-Warren.
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nyh
recumbent enthusiast

Netherlands
181 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  14:34:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Krause


The mission of the IHPVA in it's original form and again now, is an association of INDIVIDUALS not countries, not representatives, not clubs. Everyone is welcome. Anyone can join (or not) as they see fit. If the IHPVA is asked to sanction a World record the rider and one team member needs to join. The official observers from any country even if they also belong to a National club, would also need to be members.

I strongly oppose this view. I do no like this at all. It makes record racing unnecessary complicated. Most countries have well running local clubs and more than enough experience for the whole organisation of riding world records. The only thing the IHPVA has to do is to verify record attempts and keep the list of current world records.

Example for the Netherlands: with a record attempt I use the NVHPV timing equipment with the very experienced Dutch timing experts. I can do so because I am member of the Dutch HPV club. The NVHPV has paid for the equipment and I use the valuable experience of the NVHPV members.

It gets even sillier if you realise that at events like the World Championships every attendant had a change of riding a new 1000 m TT and 200 m sprint record. I understand it would be very nice for the IHPVA to have all those attendants as members but that is not real.

As we disused this in Battle Mountain this problem can be easily solved by creating IHPVA memberships for the National clubs making all members of the clubs member of the IHPVA for the case of records. Or even better, like we do in Europe: recognise each others memberships. As long as you are a member of your national HPV organisation you can enter the Dutch races with no additional fees.

This issue has to be resolved. The should be no need for double memberships of HPV organisations.

I have no problem with the HPVA renaming itself into the IHPVA as the old IHPVA wasn’t working. I feel there is not much need for an international HPV organization. At the moment the only important real international things is the record business and may be the World Championships. Those points can be easily done by the IHPVA but it should make itself indeed international and recognize the national memberships (Take a good example at the WRRA at this point). But an International organization with as “Specific purposes organizing the (a) United States Championships” and keeping “(a) Annual meetings. An annual meeting of all members shall be held at the corporation’s United States Human Powered Speed Championships” is not a very international organisation and except for world records we in Europe do not have much business with it.
So please, fix the record/membership thing and let’s start cycling again.

Hans Wessels
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nyh
recumbent enthusiast

Netherlands
181 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  15:32:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

New US centric rules? Sorry I try to stay out of this IHPVA stuff so I'm not aware of those. Please list the rule changes and what the issues are.


There is too much mixing in rules and how it is done by the HPVA in the US.

Guide for Setting IHPVA Sanctioned Records/
Official Observers Guide

V. 1.0 (June 2008)

------------8<------------------
VI. INSURANCE

Insurance is required for three purposes:

1. To protect the landowner from litigation,
2. To protect the IHPVA from litigation and
3. To protect the record seeker from litigation.

All record attempts must have liability insurance that covers the IHPVA, the landowner, and any group or organization that may be hosting the record attempt. The liability insurance should be for no less than US $1 million per record session. It is also highly desirable (but not required) that the athletes have adequate health insurance. If the record seeker crew does not have liability insurance, they should contact the HPVA in advance for current costs and insurance application procedures.

There are sources of relatively inexpensive insurance for record attempts in many countries. The HPVA has finalized an agreement in the United States with the American Bicycle Racing Association (ABR), who will provide insurance under their policy for land and water HPVs only.

If the record seeking person or team wants the ABR insurance option, at least one official observer must become an "ABR Official", which includes paying the $20 membership fee and taking a short "open - booklet" test on ABR rules. All record setters must also be ABR members.

Note: The ABR procedures are set up for regular bike racing competitions; the HPVA has added a special Appendix for HPV racing. The only way they can insure an HPV record attempt is to treat it as if it were a regular HPV competition, with attendant fees and requirements. Please have the team bear this in mind when filling out forms and ABR applications.

The record person or team, if they want the ABR insurance option, is responsible for paying for their ABR memberships, the ABR sanction fee, and the "per-competition-day" insurance fee for the riders. They will need to contact the IHPVA for the actual cost of these items.
------------------>8-------------------

Most of this insurance is all very us specific. And I don't expect the ABR to cover any record racing in Europe.

-------8<--------------
6. Long tape measure. The IHPVA equipment includes a 300-foot tape measure.
------->8------------

I am not interested in IHPVA equipment. Why aren't we allowed to use laser equipment for distance measuring?

------------------8<---------------
Each rider must present his/her Snell -approved helmet for inspection (3.2.7). Helmets must not have been altered in a way that decreases protection.

Modification To Helmet Rule - The Competition Rules of the IHPVA state that only a Snell-approved helmet can be worn, however it is well-known that currently the Snell certification is not the sole valid helmet certification. Because the competition rules have not yet been revised to update the helmet rule, in practice the Records Committee will accept the following rule modification:

Helmets can be either Snell or ANSI- approved helmets, or must have passed a National Certification test in the country of the rider. Helmets must not have been altered in any way that decreases protection. An approved helmet must be worn during the entire record attempt and any time the bike is being ridden.
------------------------>8-------------------
Snell, ANSI... if you want to be international please a least mention the NEN-EN norms for helmets.
-------------------8<----------------
XIV. TIMING AND WIND VELOCITY MEASUREMENT

A. Speed trials with a flying start from any distance (3.2.2.1 through 3.2.2.3 and 3.2.2.6).

200m, 500m, 1km and 1 mile

Two timing tapes are used: the first one at the beginning of the time trap and the second, final one at the end of the timing trap where a second observer monitors the ANR and the TMP which is connected to both tapes. An observer certifies that the start complies with the Flying Start requirements (3.2.3.2.). When the HPV crosses the first tape, the end observer hears the TMP being tripped and he starts the ANR. When the HPV crosses the second, final tape, the observer hears the TMP printing the elapsed time and he/she stops the ANR and reads the quantity of wind recorded on the ANR during the timed run. A simple calculation will show the number of meters of wind per second during the duration of the record attempt.

If the course is legal the entire distance and the timing system is capable, an HPV can attempt the 200m, the 500m, the 1km and the 1mile records all on the same run. If this is desired each event will have a timing tape at the beginning of its own timed interval and the four intervals end at the same line, where there is a fifth timing tape. The observer located at the last tape starts the ANR when he hears the TMP being tripped by the HPV passing the first tape. He records the meters of wind on the ANR each time he hears the TMP being actuated by each one of the remaining tapes. Calculation is needed to find the elapsed time for each interval and then the number of meters of wind per second for each interval.

Note: If a course is being used for standing start records as well as flying start records, a start line tape will be needed when timing standing start records. See A) above and C) below.

B. Speed trials with a standing start (3.2.2.4), (3.2.2.5)

4km, 10km, 100 km, 1, 000 km and MegaMeter.

Two tapes are used: the first one at the start line where an observer monitors the TMP and certifies that the start complies with the Standing Start requirements (3.2.3.1). The second timing tape is at the finish line where another observer operates the ANR. The observers are linked by radio. When the HPV crosses the first tape and trips the TMP, the second observer is notified and he starts the ANR. The first observer then unplugs the TMP from the first timing tape and, and with the timer clock still running, proceeds by car (don’t cross the timing tapes with the car!) to the finish line where he/she joins the observer monitoring the ANR. The first observer then plugs the TMP to the finish timing tape. At the end of event, the total amount of wind is recorded to calculate the average wind velocity for the entire duration of the event.

C. Speed trial with a standing start (3.2.2.8) 1/4 Mile Elapsed Time

Two timing tapes are used: the first one at the start line where an observer certifies that the start complies with the Standing Start requirements (3.2.3.1); a second, final tape at the end of the 1?4 mile distance, where a second observer monitors the ANR and the TMP which is connected to the two tapes. When the HPV crosses the first tape, the end observer hears the TMP being tripped and he starts the ANR. When the HPV crosses the second, final tape, the observer hears the TMP printing the elapsed time and he/she stops the ANR and reads the quantity of wind on the ANR. A simple calculation will express the number of meters of wind per second during the duration of the record attempt.

D. Time trials (3.2.2.9), (3.2.2.10) and (3.2.2.11) 1 Hour, 12 Hour and 24 Hour

Only one timing tape is used, and it is connected to the TMP, which is at the starting line. All observers and assistants first synchronize watches. The first observer certifies that the start complies with the Standing Start requirements (3.2.2.1). A second observer operates the ANR. When the HPV crosses the starting line, the TMP is actuated and the second observer is notified to start the ANR.

On the next to last lap (may be earlier on short circuits), the starting line observer disconnects the TMP from the start tape. Then he, with a flour or chalk bag and a helper with the TMP, proceeds in a chase car to follow the HPV and mark the spot attained when the time interval expired by tossing the bag. In order to do this method, the helper, who has a radio, counts down loud and clear the last twenty seconds. The observer watches the HPV so he can note its location when the helper counts down to zero...and the other observer records the amount of meters of wind when the end of the time trial is announced (in case of communication failure, he would use his synchronized watch). The chase vehicle should be driven far enough from the HPV in order not to help nor harm it (see below).

If the Time Trial takes place on a smaller track (such as a velodrome) where the HPV is in view at all times and there are numerous, accurate distance markers, the observers may fix the location of the vehicle at the end of the time trial by noting its location by its proximity to the distance markers.

Note: It is very important that the observers and any assistants practice the intended method of marking the end of the time trial!

E. Speed trial with a flying start from a given distance (3.2.2.7) 200m time trial - 600m start

Three timing tapes are used: the first one at the start line where an observer certifies that the start complies with the Standing Start requirements (3.2.3.1); a second tape at the beginning of the time trap and a third, final one at the end of it where a second observer monitors the anemometer (ANR) and the time meter-printer (TMP) which is connected to the last two tapes. When the HPV crosses the second tape, the end observer hears the TMP being tripped and he starts the ANR. When the HPV crosses the final, third tape, the observer hears the TMP printing the elapsed time and he/she stops the ANR and reads the quantity of wind on the ANR. A simple calculation will express the number of meters of wind per second during the timed portion of the record attempt.
------------------->8---------------------------------------
This is all very specific to a certain type of equipment. Timing tapes, printers that can be heared: this would even disqualify Garrie Hills equipment working on light and an thermal printer (making no noise). I guess it is describing how races are timed using the HPVA equipment. In the Netherlands we use other equipment. If we would take these rules very exact it would not be possible to do IHPVA record racing with the Dutch equipment.

Hans Wessels
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Charlie Ollinger
recumbent enthusiast

USA
187 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  15:35:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hans makes a very good point here. Now that we have a functioning IHPVA, with an effective board, and an active records committee, and Vice President level positions for affiliated organization representatives, lets put it to work. What Hans is proposing amounts to a single rule change. So send your representatives (virtually), propose the changes formally, and make the IHPVA what it should be.

Any member, anywhere in the world, is welcome to run for any office in the organization. It might be good to have more than one person running for each position. Note also that Europe is currently represented.

Charlie Ollinger
IHPVA boardmember

PS OK, hans ported while I was typing, and I was referring to Hans' shorter post when I said one change, but what I said about getting involved still stands.

Edited by - Charlie Ollinger on 12/12/2008 15:39:20
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warren
human power expert

USA
6311 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  18:52:03  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have tried to stay out of this mess for over 10 years. The inaction of the IHPVA is the reason why this web site is as wide and deep as it is today. Much of the content that I have laboriously entered into this web site is information that by rights should have been on the IHPVA site, had their board members been more interested in records and building bikes, and less interested in politics. I think that Al, Alice and the current board members are trying hard to turn the IHPVA around and bring it back to it's roots, and I do support them in that endeavor. I do not agree with everything that they and the current rules are suggesting, but believe they have good intentions. In my opinion, there is still much work to do.

I agree that the IHPVA rules as noted by Hans do not promote the setting of international records. I think Hans brings up very good points. Can we adjust the rules to make them less USA-centric? I understand that the IHPVA wants to cover itself in the case of a catastrophe, but the less rules the better.

* I agree that the helmets should have some type of certification sticker.

* In my opinion you should not have to be a member of the IHPVA to set a record.

* I do not agree with all of the specifics of the timing equipment. There are many accurate timing systems and we need to have some latitude here.

* Though it was unfortunate that it had to come to that, I think that wresting control of the ihpva.org site was the only way to bring the site into the new millenia.

-Warren.

IHPVA member for the first time ever 'cuz I raced at Battle Mountain.

Edited by - warren on 12/12/2008 18:53:11
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acegear69
Starting Member

10 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  22:39:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is with great sadness that I have been following this whole situation bear out for all to see. Could it be that all have lost sight of what the IHPVA was set out to do? Yes records was what everyone looked for and what made the news. However the base need for this organization was to bring those of like mind together and to build awareness of alternative human powered designs that could/would benefit all, and not just the card-carying members of the organization. Alas it seems that in the years following the establishment of the IHPVA that focus has been lost. Various members of this forums that made some very valid points for and against the previous structure of governance. And while it appears that Al's intent was to restore the focus of the organization, it is my opinion that the means taken to do so were deplorable and appear underhanded. Granted these actions may have been borne of frustration and hopelessness, however even though I don't personally know those involved I expected better. Having been involved in one way or another in cycling since I was a child, I have never been a member of the IHPVA so maybe I have the luxury of being on the outside looking in. However I have always admired those that have been involved in furthering cycling, in whatever form, and suppose I mostly still do. But it seems to me that anytime one seizes power with the intent of protecting whatever cause they are championing for the most part ends up causing more damage.

So that is my two-cents for what it is worth. I will continue to observe and admire those that display their ingenuity to the rest of us. I hold no ill will towards any of the involved parties, nor am I calling for anyones head on a platter. But for the time being I personally may be more cautious in considering being more involved with an organization that allows itself to be managed in this manner.

Good will to all and happy holidays!

Edited by - acegear69 on 12/12/2008 22:41:15
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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  09:20:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am thankful that these issues are seeing the light of day. This has been a very healthy exchange. I have received some responses to my call for support. Some positive and some negative. One respected European based friend (who I will not name) sent me an email which possibly reflects the sentiments of many European HPV enthusiasts. I have responded to him directly, but I feel that my response has value to this discussion.

I'm sorry if this is a little difficult to muddle through. My comments are flush left in green.

I do NOT support the actions of Al Krause c.s.

You cannot be an international organisation without the support of any
of the other national organisations. It is sad we go back to the times
of the Imerican Human Powered Association.
The actions Al Krause has started create a lot of negative energy and
cause way to much wasted time. (Also for me, I could have made a
report of the meeting we had yesterday for the organisation...


> roots. We adopted the Human Powered Speed Challenge in Battle Mountain and
> created a new hour event in Casa Grande, AZ which seems to be inspiring an
> incredible new event at the Ford Test track in Romeo, MI this summer. It
> seems that IHPVA World Record activity is at or near an all-time high.
> These international events allow racers to compete and set records at lower

Please explain, what is international (Of, relating to, or involving
two or more nations (not two or more states)) about these events.


If I recall correctly, nearly every single competition at Battle Mountain and the competition at Casa Grande had European representation. Jonathan Woolrich of the UK has organized the event.
European racers at Battle Mountain: Jason Queally, Hans Wessels, Rob English, Guido Mertents, Ellen Van Vugt, Damjan Z, Matjaz Leskovar, Jan Van Eiden.

What saddens me is that the reorganized IHPVA has accomplished almost nothing in the 10 years when the organization was handed off to them. It was the complaining of the European membership that caused the original IHPVA to reliquish power. We all hoped that it would work out, but it has been a dissapointment. I don't see people coming to the defense of actions of the reorganized IHPVA because there has been so little action. Where is the negative energy and outrage against the reorganized IHPVA leadership for not perfoming the most basic of organizational tasks and letting things get to this point? My negative energy has been building for a long time and I am going to direct that make positive changes.


[ Start Qoute of Richard Ballantine]
> Setting straight-line speed records is a specialised activity, limited to a
> few competitors. There is only one site and one event -- Battle Mountain --
> at which it is possible to set a world record. This is of interest to the
> top competitors, but not to the majority of HPV enthusiasts. Any effective
> promotion of human powered vehicles has to move beyond Battle Mountain, and
> beyond the limited activities of the HPVA. After all, Battle Mountain is a
> premier site not because of technological innovation, but simply because of
> geography; the 5-mile run-up provides some 200 Watts of power assist from
> gravity.
>
> It is said that when one door closes, another opens. The take-over of
> IHPVA.org by Al Krause and the HPVA could be an opportunity to initiate
> change and new approaches to promoting human powered vehicles. There is a
> lot of positive energy and vitality in the European HPV organisations, and
> indeed, right around the world to Down Under (Australia). I would like to
> see us actively promote human powered vehicles to new members in new
> countries.End Quote

> From this you can clearly read in his own words that Richard Ballantine
> lacks respect for the hard earned records and technological achievements at

I don't read any lack of respect, just facts.


The fact is that due to the repeatability of this event, Internationally inspired competition, and respectable prize money, Speeds with the same riders have increased 10mph over the same deteriorating road over 8years. We have seen the debut of camera bikes, rearward facing bikes, new fast Trike designs and Mutirider deisgns. We have seen new experimentation with wheel enclosures, breathing aparatus, rider cooling systems ( in hour events), tire experimentation, development of windshield blowing technology, monocoque frame technology, passive and active suspension technology. International dialog on aerodyanmics has been substantial as a result of these events.

We have invited and encouraged European Teams to come. We help them in every way possible by helping to arrange transportation and helpers. The fact is that every bike that was of record setting quality has run this course. This event has attracted World Champion track sprinter Jan Van Eiden. and Gold Medalist Jason Queally. Is this not international participation?

Where has the IHPVA organization showed leadership to break human power records in Europe? Even if the Reorganized IHPVA wanted to vote on something they dont even have voting rules. This is 10 years after creation! I am getting old. Too much time has been squandered. The main reason why I created the WRRA is because the The reorganized IHPVA was not doing anything at all about unfaired or partially faired records. I had to start this myself. I had to set records myself to get people interested. Why didn't the re-org IHPVA use their powerful name to establish new record categories and recognize the simple fact that 80-90 percent of the HPV participants were not racing fully faired speed machines designed to break the ultimate records. Is this not obvious? Unfortunately because of inaction of the IHPVA, Great unfaired and partially faired athletes and builders like Bram Moens, Pat Kinch, Frederick Van de Walle and many more were failed by the reorg IHPVA leadership. I am angry for them. and I wish that I would have thought to do something sooner. Our achievements could be much further along. We could be talking about getting into the Olympics right now.

Here is what really drives me crazy!! The reorganized IHPVA leadership has the World's in their back yard and until this year not one national organization has used the IHPVA name in promotion. Why is it that only when there is a threat to take something away does someone do something about it.

Where did the reorganized IHPVA celebrate the champions of the Worlds or publish a simple list of current and former world champions? This would be the most simple and basic task that would not even require agreement, but still it is not done.

When we created the new records committee. I learned that there was a 6 year backlog of records to be recognized!! The reorg IHPVA was not serving the racers in the most basic function.

I wanted the Reorganized IHPVA to work. It was a great idea, but the implemenation has clearly failed and the responsibility lies in the former organization to take action fix the problems. The reclaimed IHPVA is in the process of making the changes necessary to be legitimately international. Don't expect us to organize the next Worlds, but you can expect responsive support from the records committee, sanctioning, Written and electronic publicity at a minimum. Tell us what you need and lets work together to get it done in the same spirit you and I have cooperated on with the WRRA.

We need to get national organizations to accept and recognize the reclaimed IHPVA as the entity in charge of records. First, People must understand how the reorg IHPVA has failed. We have been living with this poisonous undercurrent of organzational conflict for too many years. Time has come for the dirty laundry to be exposed and clean the house. Collectively we cannot allow this situation to continue.

The HPVA has an action plan to fix the problems which is now being implemented.

1. Create a new records committee that is internationaly representative, credible and efficient records committee and post records on the IHPVA.ORG site as soon as they are ratified. (Accomplished)

2. Create VP representative positions for National and or affiliated organizations that interact directly with the reclaimed IHPVA board. (Approved but not yet implemented)

3. Legally reclaim the IHPVA name and website (Accomplished)

4. Substantially improve the IHPVA website to include a modern discussion board, user editable calendar, enhancement of the world record documentation to provide more detailed information, similar to what we have done with the WRRA records, Recognition page for all of the medal winners from every World's competitions with links to detailed results, revised internet links page, A page with documents for record submission and record procedures. Human Power and HPV news Publication promotion, I can go on and on, but I don't want to overwhelm our volunteers. I am personally in favor of on online subscription to publications, but we have not worked and agreed upon this yet. ( In Process)



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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
896 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  10:24:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Han's does make some good points in the small details of settings records in all countries
it doesn't appear to me the current language has any deliberate intent to be "American centric"
they wording could use some tweaking to reflect a changing world
but that was a thread hijack that should be addressed elsewhere

the story here is the web site
this current action didn't happen on a whim
there was many private, man to man requests to return the site to the registered owners including letters and calls from the original creator of the organization, Chet Kyle
all attempts to be diplomatic failed
the current board was set to approve a size able sum of money to legally retrieve the site
as a last ditch effort a simple phone call was made to the web host site
this successful action reduced a considerable debt load on the organization's bank account
a wise move

Al and his beautiful wife Alice (they are a "team") have nothing but the best interests for us ALL in mind and have a long history of providing exemplary service to the organization.

Battle Mountain is perhaps their high point in management.
Before their tenure it was being run as an elitist only event.
They successfully changed everyone's mindset and opened it up to all comers.
With hours of patient and persistent effort they cajoled the State of Nevada, Bureau of Land Management, Landers County, Camber of Commerce of Battle Mountain to improve the road condition to the tune of $4 million (5.36 million euro)

just for us to play silly little speed games

they have my full support




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mikeatlbch
recumbent enthusiast

USA
205 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  12:13:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wish I was endowed with the motor to set a record at battle mountain. I wish I had developed the skills and expertise to build beautiful human powered vehicles, but alas, I am a spectator...and when I compete I do so as a spectator within the event.

Many here have been working in this arena for a long time. I have read through the IHPVA materials over the years, saw the attempt at reorganiztion ten years ago but have seen limited production from that venue and more from the other local or individually maintained programs recently. For the last few years I have learned through Warren's site, though enjoy the euro scene. as they are more physically active. Is there an American state doing what the Dutch are in the realm of human power? I was very very dissappointed not to attend the world class world event in Interlachen. That should be the standard for what an IHPVA annual event is.

An International organization will need international contribution and involment. But the organization has to be active to maintain and promulgate its information. The US is but a "poor borrower" on the world scene. Please allow these souls who have volunteered to help resurrect the IHPVA activity to do so...We need work here :-).

Just to remind those who haven't looked at what the purpose of the IHPVA was incorporated to do:

This corporation is nonprofit public benefit corporation and is not organized for the private gain of any person. It is organized under the Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for Charitable Purposes.
The specific purposes of this corporation are to:
Encourage and support unrestrictive, innovative and creative design and construction of vehicles operated solely by human power for transportation on land, in the air and on the water.
Sanction and otherwise promote at minimum a yearly meet at which the vehicles may be showcased and tested.
Keep historical records (photographs, speeds, distances) of the results of these meets.
Provide focus for technical data regarding the design, construction and operation of these vehicles.
Publish a newsletter for dissemination of data and information regarding human powered vehicles of any type.


I expect a lot more of the IHPVA than one altitude speed event, or an hour event. But that ultimate speed record challenge gets exposure...which has a perverse value...Yet that still has been poorly exploited.
The other functions of accumulating and sharing information, for racing and transportation goals should be the raison d'etre, in my mind.

I hate politics, but anarchy is worse. I think those who are moving forward deserve my support. I wish everyone could just play nice in my town my state and my world. I hope the other creatures of the universe will play nice when they come.

Thanks to those who have worked in this effort from the begining. And thanks to those making an effort in the recent past. Coups have a harder time being successuful agents of diplomacy...but it is an american history. Hope others can join and do what needs to be done to make the organization work better.

Mike

Edited by - mikeatlbch on 12/13/2008 12:50:12
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Dreamer
recumbent guru

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  17:37:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The 10 year old switch of the IHPVA name from the U.S. organization to an intended international organization was a grand idea full of potential and positive benefit for all individuals interested in human power. It is from the early records and the archived volumes of Human Power that I've learned so much and developed my intense desire to design, build and promote human powered vehicles. Admitedly, I'm a new comer to this game but my passions run as deep as those of any person.

It appears that the actions to reclaim the name were not impulsive power grabs but a carefully calculated action to provide the best for the advancement of Human Power. To me, and I hope to all concerned, the question is not about the past, but more importantly, how we proceed into the future.

For any organization to succeed as a world class organization of international importance (and recognition) we have to remain flexible to changes of technology and promote a truly world class organization of like minded human power advocates.

The WRRA filled a need for recognition of achievements beyond those of pure speed and one can observe similarities between their web site and those of many of the european clubs. It seems logical to promote a new image of the IHPVA as representative and responsive to the needs of the global human power initiative. I give my support, not only to Al and Alice and the other members of the IHPVA board, but to an organization I believe has the capacity and desire to responsively, and responsibly, grow to represent and promote Human Power in all its diverse elements.

Don Schroeder
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Jack
New Member

Netherlands
50 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  18:00:07  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer

The 10 year old switch of the IHPVA name from the U.S. organization to an intended international organization was a grand idea full of potential and positive benefit for all individuals interested in human power. It is from the early records and the archived volumes of Human Power that I've learned so much and developed my intense desire to design, build and promote human powered vehicles. Admitedly, I'm a new comer to this game but my passions run as deep as those of any person.

It appears that the actions to reclaim the name were not impulsive power grabs but a carefully calculated action to provide the best for the advancement of Human Power. To me, and I hope to all concerned, the question is not about the past, but more importantly, how we proceed into the future.

For any organization to succeed as a world class organization of international importance (and recognition) we have to remain flexible to changes of technology and promote a truly world class organization of like minded human power advocates.snip
Don Schroeder




Don,

I am afraid that internation cooperation is a spirit that cannot be captured. This spirit is free and could chose any vehicle that he choses to be his. I believe Al thought it was in his old bike.
Al stole the old bike that the free spirit was in and changed the bike back to his own likings. The spirit is now out of this bike i think.
Remember international means several countries and therefore spirits that have to be ok with the actions. At least this was as it was before.
The organisation that has used the ihpva name was a democracy. Before every wise man has a say in it decisions could not be very quick.
Same with me, when i have a meeting on my own, decisions are there within moments. On the other hand, when my wife joins in the process is not that quick anymore. I do understand that racers want very quick decisions and find this with Al and his wife.

Jack
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Dreamer
recumbent guru

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  19:16:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I am afraid that internation cooperation is a spirit that cannot be captured.


Perhaps, Jack, perhaps, but those like you and I can make a difference if we are willing to stand up and be counted. Slaying the messenger does nothing to solve the problems facing the human power community. The board of the IHPVA is the voice of it's members and I believe that as such, the IHPVA will listen to and be responsive to the concerns of other human power associations and their members and will seek equitable solutions to promote, not an American association, but an international community dedicated to the future of human power.

It's not the spirit of cooperation that needs to be captured but the spirit of opportunity that needs to be set free.

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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

670 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  21:42:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings

Keeping the website updated is a challenge for all...

I believe Hans W. was looking at an earlier version of the "observer's guide" which was updated recently and is available along with the revised competition rules here
http://www.hpva.us/rules.html

Hans, some of your issues had been addressed with the recent update, I myself am not a part of that committee, although I do keep up with the activity.

Here is what the helmet rule looks like now:

"3.2.7 Safety Requirements: All riders shall wear helmets during all competition. Helmets must meet the standards of a nationally accredited testing facility of any IHPVA member country. The burden of proof of meeting these requirements resides with the competitor."

If there is communication with the rules committee in advance
discussing the plan for record attempt most issues can be resolved.

I know that (for instance) in the recent 24 hour boat record of Greg K. the IHPVA equipment was not used, and this was approved by the rules committee.
I would guess the NVHPV timing would be acceptable, but again I am not a part of that committee. I am very sure the lazer would be better than the tape.
The idea is to have the details worked out and to discuss the plans in advance, the guide is a guide for the less experianced, the rules are the rules for us all.

There are details to be worked out I agree, but I think it is all possible.

We will need to fill the "V.P. of affiliated organization" representatives positions right away.

and one last thing Hans,
vele dank voor syrupwaffles, waren zij heerlijk en toen mijn kinderen hen vonden zij spoedig verdwenen!

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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2008 :  23:33:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We really have four or five conflicts going between the American IHPVA and the international IHPVA:

1) Management of records, in particular absolute high speed records, as is being dicussed here.

2) Double use of the same same for the organisation.

3) Double use of the same domain name.

4) Differences of opinion regarding copyright.

5) Struggle for control or even personal animosities.


Those conflicts which concern me are 3) and 4) and a little bit 5), although while on the records committee I was also concerned with 1) at the time. I always got along well with Al Krause and the HPVA board until the start of the second Iraq war. As editor of Human Power I wrote an editorial criticising the US invasion and making a connection between overuse of oil and this. IHPVA chairman Richard Ballantine write something similar in Human Power. The HPVA board wasn't happy about this and tried to stop me in the same type of soft censorship which had gripped the USA at this time. No hard feelings in spite of some vitriolic commentary by Alice Krause, but I ended up resigning as editor of HP and started working on an internet version HPeJ http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/index.htm together with some members of the HPVA board who had resigned over this and the below conflict.

About the same time, the previous editor of HP and holder of other IHPVA offcices, David Gordon Wilson, had started a project for making Human Power available as an archive: on paper, CD and internet. Dave put a lot of his time and money into this. I helped out here and while the paper edition never made it, the CD and internet archives did. The HPVA president of the time, Chris Broome, gave his blessing and so did IHPVA founder Chet Kyle and of course the IHPVA board. The HPVA board was divided and in particular Al Krause didn't like it at all and is still trying to get the archive off the internet. Perhaps this is the real reason for hijacking ihpva.org. However it is futile, as there are several mirrors and the archive has itself been archived at the wayback machine of archive.org.

Conflict 2) is silly, but doesn't concern me any longer.

Conflict 3) makes me angry not because of the loss of control but because of the damage caused to links and content. There would be however a simple solution independent of the other issues: American IHPVA to give back the domain name ihpva.org to the international IHPVA and itself use ihpva.us or ihpva.net, which is already registered for the American IHPVA. How about it, Al?

Best regards, Theo Schmidt
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
896 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  10:02:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Theo
While I may agree with you ...
Policy of the American President or the American country does not belong here
to bring this up is crossing the line
this is a forum for human powered transportation
not a bully pulpit

Al is not a lone ranger
the actions are support by the board

growth requires change
please be generous and embrace it
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  10:49:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speedy wrote:
> Policy of the American President or the American country does not
> belong here. To bring this up is crossing the line.

Sorry. I was trying to fill in the historical perspective.

> this is a forum for human powered transportation
> not a bully pulpit

The use of and fighting over resources has a lot to do with human powered transportation. "Environmentalists" see HPVs as a solution for using less oil, for example. This shows me that I forgot to mention a sixth line of conflict in the HPV movement: "environmentalists" versus "racers". These two types see different priorities for HPVs even when doing both. In Germany there was a major such conflict years ago. In Switzerland we don't have this, because most of our club members are about equally in both camps.

However I do agree that this whole discussion is somewhat off-topic here. We did have a mailing list set up exactly for discussing this subject (ihpva@ihpva.org I believe). However hardly anybody participated and anyway I expect it has disappeared along with the rest of the broken links.


> Al is not a lone ranger
> the actions are support by the board

I don't doubt this. However what also happened is that several previous HPVA board members resigned in consternation over the conflicts.


> growth requires change
> please be generous and embrace it

I'm not sure what you mean here. Certainly I applaud the American IHPVA for its activity and I also agree that the international IHPVA could do with some growth. So we should stop fighting over letters. Please American IHPVA board, give the International IHPVA its domain back and use ihpva.us or ihpva.net instead, allowing us to repair the linking damge done.

I think all of us are decent, well-meaning people. Let's get back together again.
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