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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

671 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  12:47:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
when I moved the pointers I had linked back to the content on whpva.org, keeping the content available.

somebody changed those pages I linked to, and that's when it stopped working.

here is the link for the board list
http://whpva.org//pipermail/ihpva-board-formal/2008-December/date.html#24

still there...

http://whpva.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
wiki still there...
http://whpva.org//mailman/listinfo/ihpva
Hmm...

somebody else changed the WHPVA.ORG page so the links went back to IHPVA.ORG and looked dead, but if you use the exact right address they are still there right now...
which one of people in control of whpva.org changed them??




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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
907 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  12:49:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am a member of the board
generally the quiet, listening, pondering variety
when I do speak up it is with long deep thought and conviction
this current path was needed for growth and service to the membership
we tried to change thru all the proper channels and found roadblocks and non cooperation
with the proper assistance and cooperation all links and data can be restored
this will take decent well meaning people
which you
can no doubt
be included as being one of

change has occurred
please embrace and support it







quote:
Originally posted by theo

Speedy wrote:
> Policy of the American President or the American country does not
> belong here. To bring this up is crossing the line.

Sorry. I was trying to fill in the historical perspective.

> this is a forum for human powered transportation
> not a bully pulpit

The use of and fighting over resources has a lot to do with human powered transportation. "Environmentalists" see HPVs as a solution for using less oil, for example. This shows me that I forgot to mention a sixth line of conflict in the HPV movement: "environmentalists" versus "racers". These two types see different priorities for HPVs even when doing both. In Germany there was a major such conflict years ago. In Switzerland we don't have this, because most of our club members are about equally in both camps.

However I do agree that this whole discussion is somewhat off-topic here. We did have a mailing list set up exactly for discussing this subject (ihpva@ihpva.org I believe). However hardly anybody participated and anyway I expect it has disappeared along with the rest of the broken links.


> Al is not a lone ranger
> the actions are support by the board

I don't doubt this. However what also happened is that several previous HPVA board members resigned in consternation over the conflicts.


> growth requires change
> please be generous and embrace it

I'm not sure what you mean here. Certainly I applaud the American IHPVA for its activity and I also agree that the international IHPVA could do with some growth. So we should stop fighting over letters. Please American IHPVA board, give the International IHPVA its domain back and use ihpva.us or ihpva.net instead, allowing us to repair the linking damge done.

I think all of us are decent, well-meaning people. Let's get back together again.


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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  12:55:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The IHPVA board has voted to employ Warren Beauchamp to update the IHPVA.ORG site. Warren is the ideal person to perform this task. His site has demonstrated his commitment to unbiased, free exchange of ideas. The usefulness of his recumbents.com site is unparalleled. I am certain that we can expect the same standard of excellence with the IHPVA.ORG site.

I know that there are some who feel that The HPVA Board has not tried to act in diplomatic fashion to address the issues with the reorganized IHPVA, but It has been nearly one year since Warren originally offered to Richard Ballantine (through me) to overhaul the site at no cost. While Richard's response was cordial and appreciative the site did not receive the sorely needed upgrades

I am appreciative that Brian Wilson did update the Records page at the request of Chris Broome.

It is our intention to restore any broken links to the IHPVA site as soon as possible.

Sean Costin
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  14:27:05  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Krause

when I moved the pointers I had linked back to the content on whpva.org, keeping the content available.

somebody changed those pages I linked to, and that's when it stopped working.

here is the link for the board list
http://whpva.org//pipermail/ihpva-board-formal/2008-December/date.html#24

still there...

http://whpva.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
wiki still there...
http://whpva.org//mailman/listinfo/ihpva
Hmm...

somebody else changed the WHPVA.ORG page so the links went back to IHPVA.ORG and looked dead, but if you use the exact right address they are still there right now...
which one of people in control of whpva.org changed them??








Alan - none of the mailing lists now work because when you changed the DNS servers, you also changed the MX record to the godaddy default. Likewise the issue is external links from other sites and google that no longer work. If you want to fix the links can I suggest you ask your webmaster to set up a custom 404 page on your hosting account to point to www.whpva.org

Neil


Edited by - neil.carter on 12/14/2008 14:27:29
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Alan Krause
recumbent guru

671 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  15:05:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Neil,
I will pass this on to the new guy, oops, Warren has probably already read it...

Al

Edited by - Alan Krause on 12/14/2008 15:41:39
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warren
human power expert

USA
6424 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  17:12:30  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That would be assuming the political morass allowed me to access antyhing having to do with any of the old sites.

-Warren.
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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  20:38:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hans Wessels has made some excellent points and I agree that membership issues should be reworked and our current bylaws seem nationalistic. This should be analysed and corrected to reflect a broadened perspective.

We currently have a membership requirement for records, but perhaps it would be more appropriate to have a record submission fee which is reasonable. The important thing is that we need to make sure we have standardization in the application of the rules and timing. Credibility of the records is paramount.

Membership in the IHPVA should be associated with the services provided. Publication costs, event costs etc. Perhaps the term subscription would be a better term or multiple types of membership.

The IHPVA has demonstrated a clear willingness to communicate and work with all of the HPV organizations of the world. We are taking actions to make this happen in an open dialog on a newly revised website. I live in the US, but I consider myself part of an international fellowship that is driven by shared objectives.

I talked with Carole Leone yesterday who was the chairman of the reorganization committee. She has promised to contribute to this discussion. She confirmed that it was agreed by the Reorganization Committee that the HPVA was to be in control of the publications and the IHPVA.org website and she backs of our actions to take back the name and the website.

Sean Costin






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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  21:07:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Al wrote:
> when I moved the pointers I had linked back to the content on whpva.org, keeping the
> content available.

Al, I think you don't understand what you've done. Sure the content is there, somewhere, and could theoretically be relinked. But most internet links aren't dynamic and don't fix themselves. Someone would have to fix every single link manually. If somebody has bookmarked a page at ihpva.org/subject/file that page will simply no longer be there but somewhere else. As the site ihpva.org has been going on for a long time, there are thousands of links to various pages which are now all broken. The only way to fix this is to change the DNS back to where it was.

Al, please tell me why you must use ihpva.org. Why can't you use ihpva.net or ihpva.us? The only logical explanation would be that you *want* all those links broken. Another explanation is that you want to destroy the international IHPVA by denying its existance. If you can't work with us, why can't you not just us do our own thing and you do yours? Why all these attacks? I implore you to stop this silly fighting. You can do this, you are an honest, well-meaning person. Please stop this path of vindication now.

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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  21:28:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speedy wrote:
> I am a member of the board

I'm new to this forum. Could you tell me your name?


> this current path was needed for growth and service to the membership

That may be so. Nothing like a good war or crisis to end stagnation. But is it desirable? And are you right? I would venture that the present board has done a disservice to the membership by consuming personal and monetary resources on preparing lawsuits and paying lawyers to fight the international IHPVA.


> we tried to change thru all the proper channels and found roadblocks and non cooperation
> with the proper assistance and cooperation all links and data can be restored

As explained to Al above, data can be restored, links mostly cannot be restored, unless you change the DNS back to what it was. Can you also tell me a reason why you can't use ihpva.net or ihpva.us for your site?

> change has occurred
> please embrace and support it

This is exactly what we of the reorganised IHPVA had said. However the present HPVA board could not accept this and has for the last 5 years or so tried to make the reorganisation undone. It may be that it hasn't worked very well. It may be that we could have used a different name. But the international IHPVA is there and it hasn't renamed to WHPVA. Therefore I put the plea back to you. It would be nice to work together again. If you can't work with us, just let us be. But stop this senseless trail of revenge, this breaking of sites, the threats of legal action.

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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2008 :  21:52:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean wrote:
> I talked with Carole Leone yesterday who was the chairman of the reorganization
> committee. She has promised to contribute to this discussion. She confirmed that it was
> agreed by the Reorganization Committee that the HPVA was to be in control of the
> publications and the IHPVA.org website and she backs of our actions to take back the name > and the website.

It will be nice to hear from Carole. She did a super job on the reorganisation. The point of this whole discussion is that the HPVA was very much part of the IHPVA immediately after the reorganisation. Brian Wilson was the webmaster for both organisations, Jean Anderson Seay had executive positions in both, Carole and I had positions in both. Therefore the HPVA was in control of all these things. However things soon started to sour over the 6 conflicts mentioned further up and people left or changed sides. We tried to manage these conflicts but failed and the two organisations became more and more polarised and remain so to this day. We can't undo the reorganisation as the present HPVA (American IHPVA) would like and must just learn to live with each other. Perhaps we need a re-reorganisation :-)

Best regards, Theo Schmidt
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  01:20:01  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

That would be assuming the political morass allowed me to access antyhing having to do with any of the old sites.

-Warren.



The changes needed are on your own hosting account - nothing to do with the old sites - it would just point to the mirror.

Edited by - neil.carter on 12/15/2008 06:18:00
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  04:58:50  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by theo

Al wrote:
> when I moved the pointers I had linked back to the content on whpva.org, keeping the
> content available.

Al, I think you don't understand what you've done. Sure the content is there, somewhere, and could theoretically be relinked. But most internet links aren't dynamic and don't fix themselves. Someone would have to fix every single link manually. If somebody has bookmarked a page at ihpva.org/subject/file that page will simply no longer be there but somewhere else. As the site ihpva.org has been going on for a long time, there are thousands of links to various pages which are now all broken. The only way to fix this is to change the DNS back to where it was.

Al, please tell me why you must use ihpva.org. Why can't you use ihpva.net or ihpva.us? The only logical explanation would be that you *want* all those links broken. Another explanation is that you want to destroy the international IHPVA by denying its existance. If you can't work with us, why can't you not just us do our own thing and you do yours? Why all these attacks? I implore you to stop this silly fighting. You can do this, you are an honest, well-meaning person. Please stop this path of vindication now.




Obviously, you are making a drama out of a simple DNS config, where a drama does not exist. FTP the old IHPVA content to the new domain host and the issue is solved. THAT, is if the "old" IHPVA is acutally sincere about fixing things as they claim. So, after about 10 years of doing nothing, here's a chance for the old IHPVA to do SOMETHING, instead of cry about the results of their inactivity.

As for your fixation on the domain name, it isn't about the domain name. The point of having an international HPV association is that there is only ONE international HPV association. What is the logic in multiple different associations supposedly doing the same thing and serving the same purpose, besides wasting more time and effort? Is that is what is so important to the old IHPVA volunteeers? Titles? Notoriety? Prestige? Maybe that's why the IHPVA has stagnated for about a decade.

There's been a bunch of people in the US doing the job that the IHPVA was supposed to be doing all along, but wasn't. What do you do when you have an ineffectual volunteer leadership and organization doing nothing, and having a number of other people and organizations have to step up and do their job instead? Pretty hard to fire volunteers, so the legal owners of the domain reclaimed their domain name, replaced the weak prior leadership, and are trying to get the IHPVA doing what it was intended to do.

You said it yourself, you failed, a number of times on a number of different tasks, so don't complain that you were replaced. in North America, for the most part, when you have inept people, you get rid of them. I seriously doubt it's any different in Switzerland. So, if you still want to see the IHPVA succeed and grow, then show it by helping the new one. Sending control of the IHPVA back to the hands of the people that did nothing with it is a stupid strategy.
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  06:27:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
25hz (may I ask you name?)wrote:
>...FTP the old IHPVA content to the new domain host and the issue is > solved.

Well then, please do. Get read access from Brian Wilson. I no longer have access. But it won't be that easy. There is also a wiki and a mail server. I seriously doubt that you will be able to do this or even want to, as apparently one of the main points of the hijack is to get rid of the Human Power archive, as Al has been busy mailing anybody with a mirror, asking them to take it down. Is this what the "new HPVA" is really about, withholding information?


> THAT, is if the "old" IHPVA is acutally sincere about fixing things > as they claim.

The IHPVA actually has nothing to do with this as the server is maintained by Brian Wilson. He has handed over to Neil Carter, who may also have access.


> As for your fixation on the domain name, it isn't about the domain
> name. The point of having an international HPV association is that
> there is only ONE international HPV association. What is the logic
> in multiple different associations supposedly doing the same thing
> and serving the same purpose, besides wasting more time and effort?

If that is the case, then you are out of step. The HPVA is only international in the sense that there are a few international members and a few Canadian besides the many American chapters. It is primarly a US organisation with much less international representation than some years ago. As a primarily national organisation, the HPVA cannot be in charge of managing international affairs just as the USA can't run the UN. For the remainder of this thread, I'll therefore refer to the slightly international HPVA as HPVA and the truly international IHPVA as IHPVA.


> There's been a bunch of people in the US doing the job that the
> IHPVA was supposed to be doing all along, but wasn't.

That is simply your claim which you use to justify the raid and wreckage, blaiming it on the victim. I do agree that the IHPVA could be more effective, but it has worked to some extent. As the HPVA left the IHPVA in 2004, it has been fighting rather than helping the IHPVA, so the 5 last years have been difficult in any case.

You call us "inept", you want "to get rid of us". That is uncivilised, to say the least, the talk of bullies. What you are actually achieving with such statements and behaviour is poisoning and polarising minds and making enemies. Are you sure that this is what you want?

Theo Schmidt
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
907 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  07:59:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Theo
thanks for the input
however
it seems you are intent to argue purely for sake of argument
please be graceful and accept the changes and attempts to modernize

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Jack
New Member

Netherlands
50 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  10:05:49  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Speedy,

i think you are right. I think the rest of the world should accept that the hpva is not willing to cooperate or work together in any way with other hpv groups. All the time and effort that are put in will be a waste of energy.

greetings,
Jack Dekker, chairman cycle vision organisation committee
editor in chief www. ligfiets.net
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  10:37:46  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by theo

25hz (may I ask you name?)wrote:
>...FTP the old IHPVA content to the new domain host and the issue is > solved.

Well then, please do. Get read access from Brian Wilson. I no longer have access. But it won't be that easy. There is also a wiki and a mail server. I seriously doubt that you will be able to do this or even want to, as apparently one of the main points of the hijack is to get rid of the Human Power archive, as Al has been busy mailing anybody with a mirror, asking them to take it down. Is this what the "new HPVA" is really about, withholding information?



I know what was on the IHPVA site. I was on a few mailing lists, and a moderator as well. Transferring the content is a simple FTP process that requires no input other than starting the transfers. As Brian Wilson has apparently bailed, again, if the old IHPVA leadership is actually about the IHPVA then I would think the priority would be to get the content back. Also, due to Brian's domain host change a while back, many of the mailinglists are now offsite, so you see, the task isn't as daunting and hopeless as you're trying to portray. Maybe if I was oblivious to domains and servers and all their little goodies I'd believe your excuses, but unfortuantely I know better. Tell your buddies to give Warren their static IP from teh old server and a generic FTP login and he'd have the content over to the new domain in no time.

quote:

> THAT, is if the "old" IHPVA is acutally sincere about fixing things > as they claim.

The IHPVA actually has nothing to do with this as the server is maintained by Brian Wilson. He has handed over to Neil Carter, who may also have access.



Uhh, by the "old IHPVA" I mean the leadership - the people, not a bunch of files. The old IHPVA committee could very easily help get the site back up, and the content, IF that's what you really wanted.

quote:

> As for your fixation on the domain name, it isn't about the domain
> name. The point of having an international HPV association is that
> there is only ONE international HPV association. What is the logic
> in multiple different associations supposedly doing the same thing
> and serving the same purpose, besides wasting more time and effort?

If that is the case, then you are out of step. The HPVA is only international in the sense that there are a few international members and a few Canadian besides the many American chapters. It is primarly a US organisation with much less international representation than some years ago. As a primarily national organisation, the HPVA cannot be in charge of managing international affairs just as the USA can't run the UN. For the remainder of this thread, I'll therefore refer to the slightly international HPVA as HPVA and the truly international IHPVA as IHPVA.



The HPVA wasn't international because it didn't need to be. The IHPVA was SUPPOSED to be international. The HPVA started taking care of international duties when the IHPVA was busy doing little, by your own admission. So if the HPVA (who was the IHPVA in the first place) once again was shouldering international duties, why have an international organization holding the domain (and doing nothing)?

quote:

> There's been a bunch of people in the US doing the job that the
> IHPVA was supposed to be doing all along, but wasn't.

That is simply your claim which you use to justify the raid and wreckage, blaiming it on the victim. I do agree that the IHPVA could be more effective, but it has worked to some extent. As the HPVA left the IHPVA in 2004, it has been fighting rather than helping the IHPVA, so the 5 last years have been difficult in any case.



Uh huh, well, the internet is a big place and recumbents (the primary HPV activity outside the UCI - for better or worse) have still been chugging along individually. The Euro scene is strong because of numbers and proximity, while over here, it's often major treks to hold events. People who can jump on the Autobahn after breakfast in Bern and end up Denmark eating lunch don't realize that distances like that are much more of an issue over here. I know, I lived in Germany for 4 years. Regardless of what the HPVA was doing, as strong an international group as you claim the IHPVA had during that time, what people are doing across an ocean should be a moot point, and if it ISN'T, again, it points to weak leadership. Just because people hate my guts (and I imagine there are one or two that do ;)), how does that prevent me from updating a webpage, or sending an email, or acknowledging that someone busted their ass and set a record?? If a little internet infighting was putting you bunch so far off your game, that is further proof that the leadership was lacking in the IHPVA. Being a "volunteer" doesn't automatically make you a competent leader. IHPVA activity over the last few years is proof of that.

quote:

You call us "inept", you want "to get rid of us". That is uncivilised, to say the least, the talk of bullies. What you are actually achieving with such statements and behaviour is poisoning and polarising minds and making enemies. Are you sure that this is what you want?

Theo Schmidt



Don't blame the messenger dude. Even in your own replies you "diplomatically" state multiple times that the IHPVA "could be more effective". Wow, how watered down is that?? :) If you bunch were doing a great job, you'd probably still be there doing it. Fact is, you were doing a lousy job, not only by your own admission, but by others in the bent community that you were supposed to be shepherding. You HAVE to be a politician, because standardard tactics indicate that whenever it's pointed out how brutal a job they're doing, they immediately switch to the guilt tactic of trying to portray people as poisonous to shift guilt. Pathetic, actually. Forget about your ego, think about the INTERNATIONAL HPV community. That's mor rhetorical than anythign else, because it's already evident, and confirmed by your own comments, that the old IHPVA committee WASN'T thinking about the international community.

The supposedly anti-international HPVA (the new IHPVA) has already taken steps to implement and rectify the shortfalls left by the old IHPVA, that includes ANYONE, from any country or organization, so why didn't YOU do that when you had the chance? Lack of vision? Lack of interest? Lack of focus? Lack of leadership? All of the above?

In the grunts we had a simple saying:
"Lead, follow, or get the f%!k out of the way!"

You had the chance to lead, and you didn't.
Apparently, you have no interest in following.
So you know what option you have left.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6424 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  11:49:42  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As soon as we can get the ihpva.org domain name out of "disputed" status, we we be able to point it to the new site and all of the static content should begin working shortly threafter.

As Tim (25HZ) noted, the IHPVA mailing list was moved a couple years ago, which broke it, so it was abandoned by 99% of the old users. Also I'm not sure what was on the wiki. Wasn't that another domain name anyway? I'm planning on setting up a web forum to replace the old mailing list.

-Warren.
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hpvbill
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  12:23:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that the Observers guide needs to be kept updated. And, as indicated is under review now. It was not intended to be a "shall do" but as a guide to observers that may be unfamiliar with what is available and what methods work for an attempt. It is an attempt to give the observer the benefit of what has worked in the past, so they do not "re-invent the wheel". It also uses terms specific to the Austrian Algae timing equipment & the Tapeswitches that the IHPVA has for timing. It is not intended to limit the entrant to only using this equipment.
Optical systems have their own issues. I remember very well the difficulties that I had with an optical system in back in 1982! Light vehicles would not register & capturing wheel trips was difficult until we had the riders add material to the spokes (making the tyre/rim look wider to the detector) The system Garie has solves most of these problems, but sometimes has problems to! (At Battle Mtn each system has missed times, but rarely at the same time!)

As Records Chairman I committed to making the records the best that it can be.
I am committed to defend the rules, and the records that they represent. Where the rules are faulty, I am committed to improve them. I know that this has and will put me at odds with some folks. But it is the job of the Committee Chair to "take the heat" and give the competitors, their team members and the observers the confidence that their efforts will be recognized and not diluted.

Bill Gaines
o\_oo+ o-\_oo+ <o-\_oo+) O\-o+ ~x<\_+>~
(3 trikes, 1 swb & Hydroped2)
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  12:33:21  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

I know what was on the IHPVA site. I was on a few mailing lists, and a moderator as well. Transferring the content is a simple FTP process that requires no input other than starting the transfers. As Brian Wilson has apparently bailed, again, if the old IHPVA leadership is actually about the IHPVA then I would think the priority would be to get the content back. Also, due to Brian's domain host change a while back, many of the mailinglists are now offsite, so you see, the task isn't as daunting and hopeless as you're trying to portray. Maybe if I was oblivious to domains and servers and all their little goodies I'd believe your excuses, but unfortuantely I know better. Tell your buddies to give Warren their static IP from teh old server and a generic FTP login and he'd have the content over to the new domain in no time.



No need - the content is already on whpva.org. All it needs is a custom 404 to catch any pages that dont exist on the new server to forward to whpva.org

Parts of the site are not static content and FTPing content across wont make a jot of difference, not unless Python, PHP and MySQL are set up in exactly the same way and databases are transfered.

Also the mailing lists that were still on ihpva.org wont work as they rely on the mx record pointing to the correct mail server. Argue the politics and rights and wrongs of the situation as much as you like but leave the technical stuff.

Neil


Edited by - neil.carter on 12/15/2008 12:33:38
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gNick
Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  13:38:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am beginning to wonder what everybody is shouting about.
From my limited experience (18 years of being the BHPC Competition Secretary probably has no relevance to some of the exalted beings here) the ORIGINAL IHPVA had degenerated into a bureaucratic and apathetic mess which was seemingly achieving very little and even that took an inordinate length of time.
This was addressed to a certain extent by the separation of the USA national organisation from the supposedly international one.
What effect this had on the ground in the UK was a great deal of not a lot. We continue to host international events, the fact that we have World instead of European Championships these matters very little since, due to travel logistics, most competitors are from Europe.
The IHPVA has no effect on how we run the events, save for at Bentwaters this summer we had the runway surveyed to check that it was within the record limits on the off chance we could get enough run-up (we couldn't). FWIW Bentwaters' runway makes BM look like a ski jump!
For the vast majority of the BHPC and other HPV riders in the UK the IHPVA is of no relevance whatsoever. I should imagine this is a similar situation in most countries.

This isn't a damning indictment of the IHPVA though, it should be a central point for rules and records, events and record attempts should really be independent of the body that ratifies them. This isn't really something that affects ordinary riders and long may it remain so. Would the restrictions imposed on design by the UCI be appropriate for the HPV fraternity? I don't think so.

In this lies the problem we seem to be having at the moment. We seem to be having a difference of opinion as to what the function of the IHPVA should be. I feel if it is to be International, then International it should be. An organisation cannot be both international and national.

The International organisation doesn't need to have much structure, or a lot of work - its function would be to ensure that rules are uniform, primarily in the setting of records. Beyond that a communication conduit to information would be useful - this need only be a conduit as the majority of information is already held perfectly well by national organisations.

One thing I feel very strongly about is that the International organisation should NOT be organising events, logistically it is virtually impossible (would the organisation formerly known as the HPVA like to come and run the World Championships in the Netherlands next year perhaps?) and particularly in the case of record attempts, if the body that sanctions events and approves the records is running the even there is a conflict of interests. I am not saying that anyone would do anything untoward but if you aren't independent then it can happen.
It might be noted that international sporting organisations don't tend to organise events, UCI, FIA, FIFA, et al.

Could we PLEASE stop this playground name-calling and come up with a sensible solution to the problem, it is doing no-one any good and at the moment seems to be just an ego-trip on the part of a few.

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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  18:38:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings fellow hpv enthusiasts:
The purpose of this post is to show support for the HPVA/reaquired IHPVA leadership. It surprises me to see people rail against the present directorship of this club. I became interested in this sport in 1991, which has allowed me to see many changes in the sport. During this time I've seen a period of decline and a fantastic period of growth. Discussing these matters with fellow racers, we often discribe the 1990s as a dark time for the IHPVA. The website was basically useless, events were few, and what records were broken were accomplished through private efforts. If a record was broken, who would know as you couldn't find it or anything on the IHPVA website. Dealing with the old IHPVA was such an unpleasant affair that clubs who made the effort to hold a major event vowed to never do it again. Those of us who baddly wanted to race hpvs created our own organisation for that purpose, the HPRA (remember our unique slogan which reflected a bit of distaste for "that other" hpv organisation?). Then came the year 2000, Battle Mountain, and other big events. With the formation of the B.M. event, the IHPVA had to be revived for the purpose of qualifying records. Which was a good thing, because it started one of the most prolific streaks of record breaking performances. This led to the separation of the HPVA and the eventual regain of the IHPVA name. From my limited perspective, it's hard to understand anyone putting down the present leadership when you look at what our sport has achieved in the last several years. HPVs are going faster now than what many believed possible. Just look at the list of bikes who have exceeded 60 and even 70 mph. And how many bikes have exceeded 50 miles in the hour? 5 or more? Does anyone belive all this would have happened under the old IHPVA leadership? The same leadership that let the sport fall into the dark ages? And now were are looking forward to a year of even more exciting events and the certainty of even more records being broken. For these opportunities we have the present IHPVA board (led by Al and Alice) to thank.

Best regards,
Thom Ollinger
Team Coslinger
Nirvana Bicycles
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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  23:43:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nick,
I am very happy that you have joined this discussion. I am sorry for not yet responding to your personal email to me hopefully I can address some of this here.

I hope your comments about ego are not about me. I would have much preferred to go on with my racing and building content with waiting for someone else to do things. You know as well as any organizer/ builder/ racer that things don't get done on their own. I have great respect for the BHPC and all of the HPV organizations around the world. As you know, I'm one of the few Yanks that have made it to the Worlds (Interlaken, Brighton, and Brantford).

Frankly, until you brought it up, I had not considered that the records committee could somehow be affected by the selection process. As I see it, a big part of the problem with the former records committee was that it did not have administrative oversight due to the failure of the reorganized IHPVA to have formal structure, meetings and thus progress reports of the records committee. As a result, the committee apparently became a quagmire and records were not ratified for 6 years which was a terrible disservice to those who we claim to champion.

Perhaps you can tell me who decided on selection of the old records committee, what their terms of service are and who decides who gets replaced when someone resigns? What is expected the timeline for completion of ratification? What is the relationship between the records committee and the organization they serve? Does the record committee get to decide if a new distance or vehicle class is recognized? How many people are on the records committee? These are important issues that should be be clearly defined. I don't see where even the HPVA has these rules. Perhaps Bill Gaines can chime in. There is room for more improvement and because we have a working board we can address them.

The laissez-faire approach to governance of the reoganized IHPVA leaves us with these questions and without the structural tools for handling problems. It is undeniable that the delays have proven to be a problem.

In June 2007 I was involved in the nomination process of the New Records committee and agreed to the number of members. Of primary importance to me was that we select Hans Van Vugt to the committee to be certain we have an international representation. The committee also has Mike Mowett (Mr. Records),the esteemed Chester Kyle, Tom Nowak and Larry Lem. This should be posted on the website very soon.

I think this is an excellent and credible records committee. I wouldn't mind if there was more non-american representation and that could be discussed further.

We created this committee because someone needed to step in for the inactive reorganized IHPVA committee.

you wrote:

You bring up a point about an organization organizing events and
This isn't a damning indictment of the IHPVA though, it should be a central point for rules and records, events and record attempts should really be independent of the body that ratifies them. This isn't really something that affects ordinary riders and long may it remain so. Would the restrictions imposed on design by the UCI be appropriate for the HPV fraternity? I don't think so.


Aside from the fact that the IHPVA rose up from a structure where it organized record attempts and had a separate committee that ratified them for most of their existence. An organization (which organizes events or not) will influence the records committee through it's creation of rules for which it must abide and the selection of the committee. Conflicts of interest are so plentiful in a community this small that it would be impossible to create a perfectly unbiased committee. We can only endeavor to use democratic methods for selection and craft rules with this in mind.



In this lies the problem we seem to be having at the moment. We seem to be having a difference of opinion as to what the function of the IHPVA should be. I feel if it is to be International, then International it should be. An organisation cannot be both international and national.

We all feel that the IHPVA organization must be international as well. We have changed the structure of the former HPVA to include international representation for each and every HPV organization that selects a member for this purpose. This is not how the original IHPVA was structured. Each and every representative to the reorganized IHPVA can be selected by their group in any way they please to be a part of the new IHPVA.

The International organisation doesn't need to have much structure, or a lot of work - its function would be to ensure that rules are uniform, primarily in the setting of records. Beyond that a communication conduit to information would be useful - this need only be a conduit as the majority of information is already held perfectly well by national organisations.

I agree, each regional HPV group has come along quite well. We want to vastly improve the communication conduit which you refer. I think we can do some things that will be very exciting, fun and rewarding for all of us. And when I say We I mean the big we We are all in this together. Just like on this and many other HPV sites, content comes from many generous contributors.


We have so much in common that can be shared. I think some people fear that we are trying to take over the World or the World Championships. That is ridiculous! I am planning a World Championships page on the new site so that the IHPVA take a role in celebrating the World Championships' historical results, links etc. I think we can use some help with that. We are just trying to fill a void where something needed to be done and look for opportunities where we share collective interest. A working message board is a primary objective.

The IHPVA can monitor the records committee and make the Website much more functional without a huge amount of work. We will be helped by international representation and perform in an unbiased way. I believe that by restoring these basic functions we will effectively serve all the racers and the broader HPV community.

Sean Costin

P.S. Lets keep this discussion to constructive comments and criticism and suggestions. I'm hoping to put the bickering behind us and move forward on common ground.


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Jack
New Member

Netherlands
50 Posts

Posted - 12/15/2008 :  23:54:29  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thom,
what you write here is the expectation that the ihpva handles and acts like a local organisation. It should organise and finance local events such as battle mountain.
Up to today the organisation decided on rules, ratifacation of records and handled as an international platform of communication.

All things that are applauded should be in the hands of the local organisation, in this case the hpva.
It could not be in a good system to have one organisation make records, organise record racing and ratifies their own actions. Everybody that should decide on this system the checks and balances should see that there are not much certainties of evaluation and control.

It is strange to see, not acting together with the international community that is organised within the IHPVA, then decide that is does not please you and deny them and make changes into a new initiative without consulting the old one. This revolution could be supported within the american organisation, however i doubt it will be the same with the rest of the world.
Jack
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Jack
New Member

Netherlands
50 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2008 :  01:09:33  Show Profile  Visit Jack's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sean costin

Nick,snip
Perhaps you can tell me who decided on selection of the old records committee, what their terms of service are and who decides who gets replaced when someone resigns? What is expected the timeline for completion of ratification? What is the relationship between the records committee and the organization they serve? Does the record committee get to decide if a new distance or vehicle class is recognized? How many people are on the records committee? snip



Sean,

more on the records committee can be found on http://www.whpva.org/ under " announcement of a new record committee".

Like most organisations the timelines and results are closely related to the amount of energy that people put in. Much like a bike, the energy that is put in results in speed.

Members of the ihpva could be consulted and should approve record committee work. Ihpva officials were representatives of hpv organisations in Denmark, France, Switzerland, Australia, The Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Great britain and perhaps some other countries that i do not recall at the moment.
The Netherlans have a contact person for the ihpva. If a country has a very active racing scene (like France, Britain, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands) i can imagine that contact persons shoul consult the race committees.

Jack
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theo
Starting Member

Switzerland
20 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2008 :  01:48:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean Costin wrote:
> Perhaps you can tell me who decided on selection of the old records committee...

Sean, I put together the first records committee of the reorganised IHPVA mainly as a continuation of the old one with Bill Gaines as chairman. Tom Forsyth was there and very active, Christian Meyer and myself, and we asked Peter Ross and a few others. IHPVA members were asked to nominate members but the committee formally constituted itself and did this amicably and with the blessing of all.

The committee worked well in that we were able to ratify proposed records - contrary to what is written in this thread. We got bogged with revising rules and defining categories however, endless discussions on minor points. This meant that most members of the committee including Bill himself simply stopped responding, this is the way of email without tight control. We did manage to completely update the water rules however, this was a major success. Once the conflicts between the HPVA and the IHPVA started, the thing however simply fell apart. Nobody updated the records page until Chris Broome did years later. Formally Bill Gaines let it slip, but I don't blame him, as neither the IHPVA boards nor the HPVA boards offered any guidance. I hope the new records committee with Knud Jahnke, Hans van Vugt/Toni Cornelissen, Stuart Dennison/gNick Green with David Gordon Wilson and Hans Wessels as technical consultants do a better job. The reason there are no Americans/Canadians in the committee is presumably because the HPVA resigned from the IHPVA. I'm not sure how the presently competing committees (this one and yours) are going to get together until at least the name conflict is resolved, but I'm sure this will be possible once a new spirit of cooperation replaces the present stalemate. Or there will simply be two record forks and we can fight about which is the "real" one.

Regards, Theo Schmidt
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