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 New world records: 1000km, 24h, 200m low altitude
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  07:51:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This first weekend in august three new recumbent world records and one european record were set in Germany (pending approval by WHPVA/IHPVA): On Friday evening (July 31) Damjan set a new 200m low-altitude record at 107.2km/h. This morning, Christian Ascheberg set a new mark for the 1000km and 24h distances of around 22:22h and 1069km (if I calculated correctly). All records were set at the Eurospeedway Lausitz in Germay, where Damjan set his hour record last year. Damjan also attempted the hour and set a new personal best and European Record at around 87.5km, but did not manage to break Sam's new mark.

WHPVA will get the reports soon and will do a quick analysis and ratification.

Cheers, Knud
(HPV Germany and WHPVA record committee)

Edited by - knud on 08/02/2009 12:53:21

raymondg
recumbent guru

865 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  08:57:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Knud,
That is very interesting. Do you have any additional information on the 1000km/24hr attempt? What was the vehicle? Any pix or video?

Thanks,
Raymond Gage
Orion Speedtrike
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randy
recumbent guru

729 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  10:59:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Time for Adventurous Greg to dust off the ol' streamliner.
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  12:49:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Raymond!

quote:
Originally posted by raymondg

Knud,
That is very interesting. Do you have any additional information on the 1000km/24hr attempt? What was the vehicle? Any pix or video?



Thanks for asking. Christian used a "Bülk" fairing monocoque, with a custom bike with a ZOX bike inside. It is a full fairing that evolved from a 3/4 version. The first pics from the attempt can be found at the german Recumbents forum: http://liegeradforum.de/forum/showthread.php?p=230865#post230865
ZOX is a small manufacturer (zoxbikes.com) in Germany, producing steel FWDs. The fairing was designed by Eggert Bülk, who is around 70 by now and is experimenting with aerodynamic fairings since he was a kid. He designed this one from experience, to make a commuting bike, that has minimal aerodynamic drag. There are many iterations and he is still improving things every year. Christian's version is a fully usable commuting bike, he rides brevets with it and has all the light, luggage capacity, etc. that he needs for long distances. Btw. Eggert Bülk was also the first designer and inspiror (?) for the RazzFazz tailfairings that led to many WC titles in the last years.

I'm sure there'll be more pictures in the next days or so. Search for "Bülk" on youtube to find at least two vids of the fairing. Though brief ones, and of a different bike. There are a few of them around in Germany and are not commercially available, really.

Christian is around, hm, let's say 45 50, rides brevets and other long distance stuff, and has had one attempt last year at the 24h before, which was not successful (and was on a 250m track!) but proved great for testing, learning and managing to do it this year on the large oval.

The track is a German unification investment desaster, they wanted a 3rd Formula 1 track in Germany, though never came close to being one. But it is still subsidised and now used for any sort of motor events, with the main oval (http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=de&geocode=&q=klettwitz&sll=51.151786,10.415039&sspn=13.357423,28.256836&ie=UTF8&ll=51.531921,13.923969&spn=0.025842,0.055189&t=h&z=14&iwloc=A) having wonderfully smooth tarmac (according to Damjan) and is 5.8km long. The DEKRA car testing organisation runs the track or parts of it and was very open and supportive for the whole event. The people there are apparently really great! The German HPV club is toying the thought of hosting an international 1h event possibly in 2010. If that becomes reality I hope to see also some of you US-racers over here! We'll keep everyone posted.

I hope that helps for now.

Cheers, Knud

Edited by - knud on 08/04/2009 04:36:27
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  12:52:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by randy

Time for Adventurous Greg to dust off the ol' streamliner.



Well, he seems to have new goals, right? And I don't think it is very interesting to re-gain such an endurance world record. Do it once, move on. But I would absolutely appreciate if he tried. I find it amazing which psychological and physical feats people can achieve on bikes. I'd love to see a 50km/h average over a full day in the next 10 years. 131km missing for that...

Cheers, Knud
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  14:16:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great race pics at http://bent-design.com/wr/
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  18:00:46  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cool. I guess Damjan came up with his own version of a strap on trainer for the streamer similar to what the Varna gang did at Ford.

What was Hans riding for, just for fun or was he going for a record of some kind too?
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gregk
Starting Member

Canada
13 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2009 :  19:38:51  Show Profile  Visit gregk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
wow - awesome job Christian! I guess I have another goal...
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  00:26:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz
What was Hans riding for, just for fun or was he going for a record of some kind too?



He tried the 24h, too. But he was troubled with flat tires and in the end his ceramic bearings ground him to a stop, so he aborted.

Knud
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  00:36:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregk

wow - awesome job Christian! I guess I have another goal...



I think you'd be very happy on a race track like the Eurospeedway or similar. Long, smooth, zero G-forces. The next numerologically interesting mark I guess is the 30mph average, and then 49.700km/h (the UCI hour record, but for a whole day) and 50km/h average...

Did you notice any particular points of improvement during your record performance? Anything where you think you can organize better so that you can output more power? Or would you need better ambient conditions, i.e. weather, tarmac quality, track layout, roling resistance, lower drag? Because 24h is probably the distance with the most parameters that can and need to be adjusted.

Cheers, Knud
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Jeff NielsenTrisled
Starting Member

Australia
36 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  02:17:28  Show Profile  Visit Jeff NielsenTrisled's Homepage  Reply with Quote
firstly congrats to christian

secondly
is there a rule that if you going to attempt this record and if you break it that your only allowed to break it by 20km or so.

plus where can i find info on the regulations for this record.


p.s. i read that chritian attempted this record before at a 250meter track i did 12 hours on one and i can tell you that there is 5 small bumps and 2 big bumps on the first bend. If your thinking about riding on an indoor velodrome for an extended time think very long and hard about it

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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  04:16:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff NielsenTrisled

firstly congrats to christian

secondly
is there a rule that if you going to attempt this record and if you break it that your only allowed to break it by 20km or so.



Nope, 1m is enough.

quote:

plus where can i find info on the regulations for this record.



Try http://www.ihpva.eu/IHPVA/CompRule3.PDF. The new WHPVA web pages are not up yet.

quote:

p.s. i read that chritian attempted this record before at a 250meter track i did 12 hours on one and i can tell you that there is 5 small bumps and 2 big bumps on the first bend. If your thinking about riding on an indoor velodrome for an extended time think very long and hard about it



I would even discurage people from doing it. 12/24h are 50% a mental challenge, from what I learned from people, and the rest is physical. Of course technology and organisation make up another 50%...

[/quote]
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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
406 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  05:34:49  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by knud

Great race pics at http://bent-design.com/wr/



Probably to avoid London-Edinburgh-London

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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gregk
Starting Member

Canada
13 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2009 :  06:32:30  Show Profile  Visit gregk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by knud

quote:
Originally posted by gregk

wow - awesome job Christian! I guess I have another goal...



I think you'd be very happy on a race track like the Eurospeedway or similar. Long, smooth, zero G-forces. The next numerologically interesting mark I guess is the 30mph average, and then 49.700km/h (the UCI hour record, but for a whole day) and 50km/h average...

Did you notice any particular points of improvement during your record performance? Anything where you think you can organize better so that you can output more power? Or would you need better ambient conditions, i.e. weather, tarmac quality, track layout, roling resistance, lower drag? Because 24h is probably the distance with the most parameters that can and need to be adjusted.

Cheers, Knud




I think a longer, smoother track would do it. Possibly also slightly smaller frontal area, but comfort is so important for 24 hours. I'm not sure it would be possible in a Varna - you would go crazy.
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  04:40:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by legslarry

quote:
Originally posted by knud

Great race pics at http://bent-design.com/wr/



Probably to avoid London-Edinburgh-London




Probably... Btw. did any serious recumbent bike contender try to break the Lands End to John o'Groats record? Currently is is held by a petty tricycle with a mere 34km/h average.

Knud
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  05:16:54  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Interesting that under the IHPVA "Vehicle Classes", section 3.1.7.2 lists "Part faired" as undefined. I guess the groundwork was there to acommodate other land HPVS besides full on streamers, but the rules weren't developed further.

If Hans had finished his 24hrs, I guess the WRRA would have needed to institute a class akin to the HPRA superstreet to recognize it? I would imagine the Dutchmen already have just about all the TTs and distances sewn up already for that.
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  05:26:18  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While there is no altitude listing in the IHPVA rules, I thought I remembered it being something like 700 ft and under for the low altitude, but there was talk of moving it up to 800 ft?
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2543 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  07:46:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
11.0 LAND RULE AMENDMENTS:

The IHPVA approved the following amendments in 1997 and 1998:
• The IHPVA recognizes land speed records divided into two categories: high altitude and low altitude. The division is at 700 meters above sea level.


Larry Lem
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  08:48:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

If Hans had finished his 24hrs, I guess the WRRA would have needed to institute a class akin to the HPRA superstreet to recognize it? I would imagine the Dutchmen already have just about all the TTs and distances sewn up already for that.



Hans used his Quest, so no need for a partially faired class there. But we at WHPVA are discussing definitions for a partially faired class right now and might include it in the rules. We seem to be quite close to a consensus that does not exclude obviously good existing ideas but sets sufficient limits to actually provide a real class definition.

Knud
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  09:17:08  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Larry Lem

11.0 LAND RULE AMENDMENTS:

The IHPVA approved the following amendments in 1997 and 1998:
• The IHPVA recognizes land speed records divided into two categories: high altitude and low altitude. The division is at 700 meters above sea level.

Larry Lem



Well, of the 4 or 5 different IHPVA/WHPVA sites, I guess I missed the PDF that actually goes down to point #11.
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  09:20:09  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by knud

quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

If Hans had finished his 24hrs, I guess the WRRA would have needed to institute a class akin to the HPRA superstreet to recognize it? I would imagine the Dutchmen already have just about all the TTs and distances sewn up already for that.



Hans used his Quest, so no need for a partially faired class there. But we at WHPVA are discussing definitions for a partially faired class right now and might include it in the rules. We seem to be quite close to a consensus that does not exclude obviously good existing ideas but sets sufficient limits to actually provide a real class definition.

Knud



Excellent. I guess that'll be, what, 5 different labels/classes for the same vehicle now. Good thing some standardization is proceeding nicely.
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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2009 :  09:50:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

Excellent. I guess that'll be, what, 5 different labels/classes for the same vehicle now. Good thing some standardization is proceeding nicely.



What do you mean? That there are several definitions on what a partially faired vehicle is? Well, that has a long discussion history, but the European + Australian definitions were always quite close to another. So we are making a push to find a definition and name that will then be or can be adapted by the national organisations. The HPVA-definition always stuck out. So it seems this is another North America vs. The Rest Of The World issue. But maybe our eventual suggestion might be found interesting to the HPVA, too.

And this is not about standardisation, but about setting a single limit on construction, but not on fantasy... But I guess that is what you meant.

Knud

Edited by - knud on 08/04/2009 09:51:41
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legslarry
recumbent enthusiast

United Kingdom
406 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2009 :  03:19:43  Show Profile  Visit legslarry's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by knud
Btw. did any serious recumbent bike contender try to break the Lands End to John o'Groats record? Currently is is held by a petty tricycle with a mere 34km/h average.



Not to my knowledge, though coincidentally Olympians James Cracknell and Rebecca Romero have just had a go at the mixed tandem record currently held by Wilko & Miss L.E.A Taylor (who I think is called Lynn and also holds the womens solo record). They were obliged to pack somewhere in darkest Scotland yesterday after La Romero started suffering from knee problems.

I suspect a strong rider in a Quest could probably beat Wilko's record, but I personally wouldn't like to attempt it in anything with fewer than three wheels. Parts of the route have heavy traffic and/or steep hills, and all of it is subject to the vagaries of the BRITONS' weather which, as London-Edinburgh-London so graphically demonstrated last week, can get thoroughly nasty[1] even in the middle of our so-called "summer".

1 - hypothermia, flooding, bikes and riders being blown clean off the road, naked Italians and Mark Hummerstone

Dave Larrington
http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
=============================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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25hz
human power supergeek

Canada
1223 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2009 :  05:49:14  Show Profile  Visit 25hz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by knud

quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

Excellent. I guess that'll be, what, 5 different labels/classes for the same vehicle now. Good thing some standardization is proceeding nicely.



What do you mean? That there are several definitions on what a partially faired vehicle is? Well, that has a long discussion history, but the European + Australian definitions were always quite close to another. So we are making a push to find a definition and name that will then be or can be adapted by the national organisations. The HPVA-definition always stuck out. So it seems this is another North America vs. The Rest Of The World issue. But maybe our eventual suggestion might be found interesting to the HPVA, too.

And this is not about standardisation, but about setting a single limit on construction, but not on fantasy... But I guess that is what you meant.

Knud



Understandably, there might be a misinterpretation due to language, that's cool. By "standardization", I'm referring to description of the class. As for the HPVA, that, to my understanding, was a North American proxy for the IHPVA, and it used the IHPVA definitions - it didn't make up it's own. Also, your results are going to be submitted to all the "international" HPV committees (and I don't know how many there are any more, 2? 3?) for ratification?
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DamjanZ
recumbent enthusiast

Slovenia
282 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2009 :  12:13:47  Show Profile  Visit DamjanZ's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I use similar device since 2005 for training and warming up. One trainer is in California, the second version I made in Europe in 2006. I modified it 6 months ago into what you can see now. I saw Sam's system at Ford first time, I didn't have even time to look at it closely.
Damjan
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

Cool. I guess Damjan came up with his own version of a strap on trainer for the streamer similar to what the Varna gang did at Ford.

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knud
New Member

69 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2009 :  14:30:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 25hz

Understandably, there might be a misinterpretation due to language, that's cool. By "standardization", I'm referring to description of the class. As for the HPVA, that, to my understanding, was a North American proxy for the IHPVA, and it used the IHPVA definitions



No, since there has never been a "restricted" class definition internationally. So everyone made up their own. Some more similar, some not. World championships are always run with their own class definitions, usually depending on where they are hosted. In my eyes: A big mess.

quote:

Also, your results are going to be submitted to all the "international" HPV committees (and I don't know how many there are any more, 2? 3?) for ratification?



No, the WHPVA is the international organisation, with delegates from all member states. The WHPVA record committee will make a rule suggestion and the board will try to get a unanimous vote on it. I assume that the national committees (currently 10) will then adopt these rules. I hope that the rules will be so convincing that IHPVA will adopt them, too. I would like to avoid a separation of rules and record lists between IHPVA and WHPVA, if there is supposed to be a chance for a re-unification towards an international organisation, *including* north america (once tempers and egos have come back to socially acceptable standards).

Knud
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