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DeanV
Starting Member

New Zealand
24 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  01:44:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do you think would be the fastest type of recumbent for doing a 100 mile road race? I am referring to a course with an average mix of flats and climbing. The bike could have bodywork but it still has to be controllable in a 15 knot wind and with other riders around you.
How would it compare to a DF for speed?
We have a very popular ride around a lake (10,000+ riders) down here in New Zealand and I would like to try it on something different (and fast).

sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  04:45:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tail faired low racer or open top lightning.

No matter what you ride, it will be slower on the hills. To win you need to be able to break away from the pack on the flats. You have to ride your own race.

I rode Race the Lake this year around Lake Oshkosh, WI. It sounds very similar to your race. Dead flat for 45 miles and hilly the rest of the way. 90 miles total. It was a great challenge to do and look forward to competing in it again.

Sean
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2538 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  07:12:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Please describe "open top lightning".

Larry Lem
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sean costin
human power expert

Lesotho
2005 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  09:49:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Larry Lem

Please describe "open top lightning".

Larry Lem



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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2538 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  11:47:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Aha, Lightning F-40!

Vying for third place, I'd add an Easy Racers Gold Rush with front fairing and body sock.

Larry Lem
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3422 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  11:49:32  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Depends on the weather.

This bike won a 12hr road race, 278 miles last May:



and did not do bad the year before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D5AdSZmCP8

This bike and rider holds many road race records:



The main problem would be getting around all the other rides to get out in the clear, out front. Once you do so your momentum will carry you over hills. It's a great feeling wizz past the lead group as they have slowed and are standing in the uphill climb.

C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 11/20/2009 12:13:06
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3860 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  14:45:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know if it would be the fastest recumbent for a Century ride with hills, but it is the Fastest Century Recumbent on a Flat 5 mile (8 km) oval.
The Speed Hawk II set both Men's and Women's 100-mile Century Records this past summer at the Ford Human Powered Speed Challege: This was on their way to establishing new marks for 6-Hour distance as well.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/FordChallenge2009/results.htm

Men's 100 mile Record: Hans Wessels:
2:33:28.929, 39.092 MPH, 62.913 KPH - with one stop

Women's 100 mile Record: Ellen van Vugt:
2:48:44.679, 35.557 MPH, 57.223 KPH

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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2538 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  15:24:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking more along the lines of production-based bikes, though not sure if that was a correct assumption. (something not too hard to obtain or build)

Larry Lem
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DeanV
Starting Member

New Zealand
24 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  17:56:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It doesn't need to be a production based bike.
How easy to control are the enclosed two wheelers on a windy day, up and down hill? I presume some will be better than others depending on the body shape, C of G , etc.
Is the old Vector style of trike still a good option if you could make one reasonably light? I know the 2 wheelers will run faster in calm conditions but thought you might have trouble keeping them upright when the wind gets up.
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1272 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2009 :  22:04:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DeanV

It doesn't need to be a production based bike.
How easy to control are the enclosed two wheelers on a windy day, up and down hill? I presume some will be better than others depending on the body shape, C of G , etc.
Is the old Vector style of trike still a good option if you could make one reasonably light? I know the 2 wheelers will run faster in calm conditions but thought you might have trouble keeping them upright when the wind gets up.



Again, it depends. I've seen bodysocked Easy Racer riders keep upright in 30+ mph crosswind gusts. The fabric flexes and absorbs much of the impact of the wind. It's still pretty hairy riding in winds like that- some of us take the sock off completely, which is another advantage of the fabric sock.

The more rigid the fairing, the more sensitive to wind it becomes. That said, the Rotator Coyote http://www.rotatorrecumbent.com/coyote.html has accumulated tens of thousands of road miles, so it's not impossible to make a road-going streamliner.

I doubt you could make a Vector trike http://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/vector/vector.htm "reasonably light". They were never meant for road use, and had huge turning circles, poor cornering, heat gain through the canopy, etc., etc. If you were to modify one to be more road-worthy, you'd end up with a Greenspeed Glyde http://www.greenspeed.com.au/Glyde.htm . If you want to go for a clear canopy (and the attendant heat and maintenance issues), a Go-One Evo: http://picasaweb.google.fr/transporvert/GOONE#5329063967481059010
would be the bee's knees.

__________________
Jeff Wills
All my bikes:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/Gallery/index.html
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2009 :  07:54:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's the thing, if you are like most of us, you want to "whip up" on that huge pack of roadies. That means you have to start by being very close to as good a rider as them, and then add a technical advantage. When you see riders like Tony L. and Dennis G. beating up big packs of roadies, you have to realize they are VERY good riders pedalling exotic, custom built machines. If you already ride a recumbent and can keep up with the fast pack, adding an efficient fairing like an F-40 or M5 fabric streamliner fairing will put you ahead. My choice would be the rarely seem M5 fabric/foam shelled streamliner. Personally (Jeff might disagree), I've never thought the bodysocked Gold Rush replica was any faster than a competitive lowracer. It might be. Like Sean said, a very fast bent with a tailfairing can work, but you have to already be as fast as the fastest roadie for it to put you ahead (see:Frank Geyer at the Black Bear). Or, you can be a bit slower as a cyclist and with much time, effort, and practice become proficient in a streamliner and get the job done. But it can take months or years to build and refine a streamliner for the road, and then get good at riding it fast. That's why it is very rare to see guys in liners out whipping the fastest riders at century type events.

Good luck,
Thom
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OpusthePoet
recumbent guru

USA
678 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2009 :  16:23:07  Show Profile  Visit OpusthePoet's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Another Aussie trike with a racing heritage is the TriSled Avatar http://www.trisled.com.au/avatarvelo.html It can be used for commuting or cross country touring with the optional pannier kit. This is the same vehicle they use for 24 hour races in Oz.

Opus

My gas is up to $.99 a burrito, $5.99 for premium and I'm only getting 20 miles to the regular burrito.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  04:50:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention that Richard Myers'
F-40 style Jester is very close to what
I consider the perfect bike for long
road events. That's why Richard designed
and did an excellent job building it. Does
anyone have a picture they can post?
The Jester is already a fine bike, and
the hard/soft shell makes it faster without
making it much heavier or hard to handle.

Thom
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Garrie L Hill
human power supergeek

USA
1784 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  07:01:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's Richards Jester

Here is Richard's pics documenting the build of the plug, and the carbon nose I made for him
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/imagew2.aspx?p=1&c=5458505&i=259201142&z=0

And, here's the completed machine!




Garrie "carbon based lifeform" Hill
for pics of some of my time and money sucking projects
http://garriehill.winkflash.com/
and
http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/cfbb/
and videos
http://vimeo.com/5513519


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Grasshopper
recumbent guru

USA
511 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  07:09:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/FordChallenge2009/images/cortez/DSCF5744.jpg


Chris


quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

I forgot to mention that Richard Myers'
F-40 style Jester is very close to what
I consider the perfect bike for long
road events. That's why Richard designed
and did an excellent job building it. Does
anyone have a picture they can post?
The Jester is already a fine bike, and
the hard/soft shell makes it faster without
making it much heavier or hard to handle.

Thom

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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  08:24:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BEAUTIFUL! Richard, go into production!
I'll take one with a Hill/Varna canopy.

Thom
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1272 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  16:41:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Personally (Jeff might disagree), I've never thought the bodysocked Gold Rush replica was any faster than a competitive lowracer. It might be.


I dunno- I have no data. On some informal coastdowns, me (front-faired, not bodysocked, Easy Racer) was about equal to a Bacchetta highracer. I know that the 'socked ER bikes I ride with push my pace (good for training).

Comparing Todd Marley's TT times on his lowracer and my times on my Gold Rush:
http://www.vbc-usa.com/trials/VBC_Time_Trial_Results_2009.xls
I'd guess we're pretty well matched. This also bodes well for my eventual streamliner TT- I'm aiming for 17-ish minutes.

__________________
Jeff Wills
All my bikes:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/Gallery/index.html
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Jeff Wills
human power supergeek

USA
1272 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  16:48:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garrie L Hill

Here's Richards Jester




That's just bananas...

__________________
Jeff Wills
All my bikes:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeff_wills/Gallery/index.html
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3422 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2009 :  20:11:29  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have found that the cloth fairing is not as good as coroplast in the rain, when the cloth saturates, it sags. When it does, it flaps. Cloth, on the other hand breaths, which is nice on warm days, except in the rain when the pours are sealed with water, then it doesn't breath. A cloth fairing is generally lighter, if the support framing is light, say made out of poly irrigation tubing or such, which makes hill climbing easier. All in all a coroplast fairing is faster than cloth.

Cloth doesn't protect in the event of a spill. A coroplasted HPVer is braver.I would go with a low seat height, around 10 inches and fairly upright back with the BB low, maybe 14 inches.

I can put out more power with a low BB. My legs don't clear out lactic acid with a high BB, which would be more aerodynamic. Maybe I should be doing heavy leg squats for training, instead of just cycling (any comment on this, would this help?).

A 15 kt wind can be your friend. You can actually sail, especially with a top on the bike.

With 10,000 riders in only 100 miles. You probably won't have enough time to get around them all.
C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 11/23/2009 05:24:20
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LongJohn
recumbent guru

China
581 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  07:44:27  Show Profile  Visit LongJohn's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Tony,

Instead of doing squats you can also do Obree training:

Get into your highest gear and ride up a hill. Try to maintain 40-60 rpm.

I do (did) 60 rpm training on the Tacx; highest gear, and highest resistance (setting 5), 10 x 5 minutes, with 2.5 minute breaks.

If you do this training on a Tacx (or similar) check your drive tire after every ride, it will wear out fast!

Thomas
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randy
recumbent guru

729 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  08:48:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LongJohn

Tony,

Instead of doing squats you can also do Obree training:

Get into your highest gear and ride up a hill. Try to maintain 40-60 rpm.

I do (did) 60 rpm training on the Tacx; highest gear, and highest resistance (setting 5), 10 x 5 minutes, with 2.5 minute breaks.

If you do this training on a Tacx (or similar) check your drive tire after every ride, it will wear out fast!

Thomas



I would give my right arm to be able to do that on a regular basis (more than a few weeks) and not have a complete physical meltdown.
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raymondg
recumbent guru

865 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  11:55:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Low cadence (60-85 RPM) is essentially Carmichael tempo. But work up to it!!! If you try to go to high output, low cadence straight off, you stand a good chance of blowing your knees, ankles, hips, whatever is weekest. I found that Carmichael has a nice periodization plan in his book to help you map out your workouts so you don't try to come up this ladder too quick.

Before I blew out my ham (again , and for unrelated reasons) I found regular low cadence tempo work did more for my endurance base than anything else I've ever tried. Of course training in a pack at race/near race pace seems to work best overall.

Raymond
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2538 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2009 :  06:50:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crazy, strong Thomas said:

"Get into your highest gear and ride up a hill. Try to maintain 40-60 rpm.

I do (did) 60 rpm training on the Tacx; highest gear, and highest resistance (setting 5), 10 x 5 minutes, with 2.5 minute breaks."



Assuming 185 lb rider, 25 lb bike, 52/11 gear, 700C wheel, 60 rpm, 6% grade........

= 571 W

Yowee!!!!

Larry Lem
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3422 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2009 :  09:52:21  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yowee is right, I'll stick to lower BB.

C:
Tony Levand
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DeanV
Starting Member

New Zealand
24 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2009 :  20:03:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the suggestions.
It seems that It may be quite similar to when I do these rides on our DF Tandem. Although it is faster on the flats it can be hard to keep up on the hills. So the end result is that on a hilly course we get dropped uphill and towing slower riders along on the flats.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2009 :  20:47:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dean,
Make no mistake, while a tandem is
a little faster on the flats, a good liner
is WAY faster. An earlier post had a
picture of Dennis Grelk in his liner. A
few years ago Dennis won a 12 hour
race on a course with rolling hills and
one challenging climb. He won by almost 50
miles! And that was after starting the race
on a different bike, flatting, and going
back for his liner. Tandem speeds may
be comparable to recumbents, but not
streamliners.

Have fun riding while we're freezing,
Thom
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