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Public Enemy
recumbent enthusiast

128 Posts
Posted - 10/27/2011 :  23:28:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are Cruzbikes the new recumbent speed machines?
You tell me. If I see Sean on one then I know this "movement" in bent land is for real.

Public Enemy

trsnrtr
recumbent enthusiast

243 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  05:46:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know, but I'd like to ride one just to try it.
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warren
human power expert

4233 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  05:49:57  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Only if you believe.
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Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  07:56:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Would Maria Parker have gone further in 12 hours if she had ridden a laid-back M5 highracer?

(I think so.)

Larry Lem
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3007 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  09:52:23  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No!
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Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1998 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  10:17:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm with Mike on this one. It's as aero as any HR, lower, and mechanically efficient.
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Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  10:43:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To which question was Mike answering?

Larry Lem
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Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1998 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  16:57:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, I guess I don't know. I thought he was talking to Larry, but.....
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Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  18:44:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking that they have mechanically efficient drivetrains, but how much effort is expended steering and controlling that could be going into power to propel the bike instead. Same as a fixed bottom bracket bike, or a little less efficient?

If one had a powermeter and ran it on both bikes, would their power on both be identical at AT?

Larry Lem
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warren
human power expert

4233 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  19:08:30  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As always, 99% of speed is aerodynamics, drivetrain does not make much difference. The new Cruzbikes are more laid back, and because of that they are faster than the older models. They give a better full body workout that a standard recumbent, and do hold their own up the hills or when cruising. High RPMs and high speeds are more difficult.

-Warren.
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Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  19:59:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll say that speed is 50% aero drag and 50% power. If one can put out more power on one bike than the other and aero drag is the same for both...

Speed at Battle Mountain also depends "equally" on both.


Larry Lem
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3007 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  21:52:32  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was answering "No" to Public Enemy's question "Are Cruzbikes the new recumbent speed machines?"
I agree with him, if we saw Sean on one, maybe they would be for real. But Sean already posted data showing the M5 highracer to be slower than his NoCom. Since the Cruzbike might be defined as a midracer to highracer layout, and its frame is not as aero as a M5, I'd be even more inclined to answer "No".

I understand Public Enemy's light-hearted commentary that since so much has been written about Cruzbikes lately on BROL, and with Maria setting records, that they must be more real, and thus the new vastly superior recumbent design. However, much like what I write, you can take it with a grain of salt!
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Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1998 Posts
Posted - 10/28/2011 :  21:57:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Highracer fast? I think so.
NoCom/Morciglio fast? I think not.
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Runxner
recumbent enthusiast

Australia
327 Posts
Posted - 10/29/2011 :  00:23:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fast is a relative term so, it depends what you're comparing it too. I did just look at their site and the marketing rubs me the wrong way.(Well, yeah almost all marketing rubs me the wrong way)

"Anyone who has trained seriously on a diamond frame bike can expect their training to translate to immediate performance on the Vendetta. A long period to get your 'bent legs' is not needed with our front wheel drive technology."

"Cruzbike is an Australian invention, invented by me in 2005"
What's so different from other MBBs?

For a pure speed machine it appears to adjust the boom length the crank pivots changing the seat to BB height difference.



Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist
Adelaide, Australia
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1646 Posts
Posted - 10/29/2011 :  10:47:50  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The cruse frame probably looks very nice on hanging on a wall.

C:
Tony Levand
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Public Enemy
recumbent enthusiast

128 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2011 :  00:20:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Upright Mike

I was answering "No" to Public Enemy's question "Are Cruzbikes the new recumbent speed machines?"
I agree with him, if we saw Sean on one, maybe they would be for real. But Sean already posted data showing the M5 highracer to be slower than his NoCom. Since the Cruzbike might be defined as a midracer to highracer layout, and its frame is not as aero as a M5, I'd be even more inclined to answer "No".

I understand Public Enemy's light-hearted commentary that since so much has been written about Cruzbikes lately on BROL, and with Maria setting records, that they must be more real, and thus the new vastly superior recumbent design. However, much like what I write, you can take it with a grain of salt!


Mike,

I am not bashing this bike but am simply curious. If this company has something folks should check it out.
In my world the DF world you have a number of bikes for a number of functions. Ya know like mountain biking and time trialing? Maybe this platform might be an inovation for regular road riders?
Just saying...

PE
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warren
human power expert

4233 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2011 :  06:23:08  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Gary Toy has one and is currently performing a long term road test. Let's see if he will jump in and add his 2 cents.
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kidneyboy
Starting Member

USA
24 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2011 :  14:35:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Silvio and it's the fastest bike I have ever owned. I'm not a racer, don't ride in the fast group, just a regular road rider. So relative to me and my budget and the way I ride and the roads I ride on and the shape I'm in, it's fast.

chuck
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COBRA GT
New Member

52 Posts
Posted - 10/30/2011 :  18:54:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was very intrique by the MBB concept.So enter the Cruzbike Silvio.Short chain,frt whl drve,and 2 big whls.So after mastering the MBB and putting in the miles.IMO this bike performs!Its fast and it sure can climb.Very efficient and well design.No torque steer,handles well on descents,grt on crappy roads[F/R suspension].Best of all.I can ride with the roadies on their DF bikes.Due to the upright and height of seat.The roadies can get a draft.I ride with a bike club and do rotations[10-15 riders]speeds 25/28 mph.But the best riding is with my bent buds on their Carbent,ti Reynolds,carbon HR bikes in M.I..Gary.
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Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1998 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2011 :  07:52:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And the Vendetta is apparently faster. Hmmm.

Hi Gary :-)
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Upright Mike
human power expert

USA
3007 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2011 :  08:46:25  Show Profile  Visit Upright Mike's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I like these debates on an open forum. Godo ideas come forth this way. I once built a MBB (moving bottom bracket) in school, we copied some of the work of Tom Traylor out in California who published it in the HPV news. At the ASME competition, Tom was there. He got on our bike and rode it around the parking lot NO-HANDED! On the other hand, us "kids" had more trouble controlling it. I never found it to be as fast as my other recumbent.

John has built a kick-butt carbon fiber MBB, his Hammerhead he calls it. Just due to seat position, lighter-weight, and better aerodynamics I'd say its faster than a CruzBike. Plus John put alot of thought into the fork angle, handlebar location etc. His explanations of how a MBB should work left me, even as an engineer, trying to keep up with his advanced way of thinking. It works!
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
656 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2011 :  09:54:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2 things that come to mind

as a recumbent racer I found the sweet spot for leg adjustment to be
+/- .25" (6mm) the moving BB will be changing the X-seam length constantly and also changing load paths into the knees
over the long haul I doubt this is a good idea for the human body

whatever aero disturbance is started at the front can't be fixed down stream ... the front of the bike looks aero dirty (to me) chains, sprockets, frame etc.
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kidneyboy
Starting Member

USA
24 Posts
Posted - 10/31/2011 :  18:29:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speedy, How is the MBB design that much different than a DF with regards to changing load paths into the knees? How come you can fix the aero disturbance on a FWD bike, which seems to be being done, but not a MBB?

I'm asking out of curiosity.

BTW, I think the Silvio is a nice all around road bike, not a racer.

chuck
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alevand
human power supergeek

USA
1646 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2011 :  05:05:08  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ive never rode one, but in the videos it looks like the riders squirm in the seat, especially when tired. Probably to react the steering torque.

C:
Tony Levand
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COBRA GT
New Member

52 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2011 :  06:32:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Mike.Saw pics of hammerhead.Awesome looking bike.Bike looks to be very fast.Did u ride it? What is Johns concept on MBB? Gary.
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
656 Posts
Posted - 11/01/2011 :  09:09:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
on a DF the seat and cranks are in a fixed position. this allows a straight load path for the knees, hips, ankles
with a moving BB the leg length changes constantly (by a large amount) the load path thru the leg will have all sorts of unusual vectors.
over the long haul and wide variety of people this probably is not a good thing.
aerodynamics can be identified much easier with coastdown testing.
with testing I found only one front driver to match rear drivers. it was so laid back it was useless on the street.
your results may vary.


quote:
Originally posted by kidneyboy

Speedy, How is the MBB design that much different than a DF with regards to changing load paths into the knees? How come you can fix the aero disturbance on a FWD bike, which seems to be being done, but not a MBB?

I'm asking out of curiosity.

BTW, I think the Silvio is a nice all around road bike, not a racer.

chuck
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