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Runxner
recumbent enthusiast

USA
441 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2015 :  21:47:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Specialized-Aero-700C-Carbon-Fork-with-Brake-Studs-/231736691012?hash=item35f4954944:g:3JYAAOSwjVVV48Li

$45


http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRP-TTV-Time-Trial-Triatlon-Aero-Bike-Brake-Black-NEW-Ships-from-U-S-NEW-/401019036817?hash=item5d5e98e491:g:B1sAAOSwo0JWMXDV

Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist

Edited by - Runxner on 10/30/2015 21:49:48
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Jan v S
New Member

Netherlands
87 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  03:33:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

It would be faster as a RWD bike and this layout would support that, but the FWD is so convenient.



That´s interesting too me. Will a RWD bike be really faster and more important for me is why do you think so?

After building the Cygnus Omega and using my time now to make it little more perfect(and faster :)) I'm already looking around to make a fast open recumbent for racing.

Maybe a FWD can be even faster when you streamline the driveline well like Mike burrows does in his last bike!! It's easyer to streamline the driveline of a FWD.



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Admin
Forum Admin

USA
99 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  05:36:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm looking for an all carbon fork. The one that ruxner posted would be perfect except the brake it uses with that stud position is a center pull job. For that price I could just remove the studs and drill my own caliper brake mount hole.

I'm basing my "RWD is faster" on having the idlers and chains up in the front of the bike where they are more exposed, but that air is already churned up by legs and feet. So it may not be as big a deal as I imagine. I'll take a look for pics of Mr Burrows FWD bike.
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Balor
recumbent guru

Russia
512 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  06:16:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I doubt that FWD is any different (except for wheel slip under acceleration and difficulty of installing front suspension) unless you add MBB into the mix :).
I've had both, FWD-MBB and RWD, and power delivery is MUCH more efficient on MBB.
Gotta repost my theories from Bentrider, btw, and see if any of you will provide some comments.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  07:07:21  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yeah I respect the whole MBB thing but I'm not ready for that.

After looking at a bunch of forks on ebay I bought the #2 one below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Carbon-Fiber-Road-Bike-Front-Fork-Ultralight-Racing-Bicycle-700C-28-6mm-/121789905781?var=&hash=item1c5b3e7b75:m:myBGHi5s3w2XFie1lccYtYQ

It's got wide blades which will (potentially) make it better for FWD. Once I get it I'll see how much fun it will be to add 30mm to the width.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  07:39:31  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good article about Mike Burrows racing bike progression.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/ratracer-story-sinking-ever-lower

It's a bit hard to tell but I think his latest iteration in this article is RWD. I think the latest one is this one. The fully enclosed driveline is beyond my building skill level.

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Jan v S
New Member

Netherlands
87 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  09:04:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Good article about Mike Burrows racing bike progression.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/ratracer-story-sinking-ever-lower

It's a bit hard to tell but I think his latest iteration in this article is RWD. I think the latest one is this one. The fully enclosed driveline is beyond my building skill level.




As far as I know this bike is FWD
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Jan v S
New Member

Netherlands
87 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  09:08:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[/quote]

As far as I know this bike is FWD
[/quote]

http://www.bikefix.co.uk/mike-burrows

It's a very interesting bike. The driveline is something never seen before. Very nice!
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Runxner
recumbent enthusiast

USA
441 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  09:49:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Freaking awesome, I love a new ratracer release like fanbois like a new iphone.I would not be surprised if Mike had that 2wd in there. But to my eyes I can't figure how a chain would fit through that under the seat area. the caption on this photo says FWD.His rwd are usually dropped chain.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/P1000299.JPG


Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist

Edited by - Runxner on 10/31/2015 10:08:12
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stix
recumbent enthusiast

Australia
135 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  14:41:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How does the steering work on Mike's bike?

Stix

Peregrin on Birk (Birk Comet RT with full fairing)
Lightning F-40 (built around R-84 frame)
Soma Smoothie Upright
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  17:54:53  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
His last bike was hub center steering so this one is probably the same. The FWD chain runs through the single side fork on the right hand side. Complicated but apparently it works.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2848/10398922786_eda6659375_k.jpg

Edited by - warren on 11/01/2015 08:11:45
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  18:11:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That makes the steering question even a bigger mystery.
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Runxner
recumbent enthusiast

USA
441 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  18:44:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think that shiny top cap is all the tiller, single sided fork (shadow in the back) on this one.

Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist
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stix
recumbent enthusiast

Australia
135 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2015 :  21:53:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Runxner

I think that shiny top cap is all the tiller, single sided fork (shadow in the back) on this one.

Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist



You are probably right. I just wondered if the handlebars might turn like a steering wheel (ie. with some sort of right angle angle gear at the top of the fork).

Stix

Peregrin on Birk (Birk Comet RT with full fairing)
Lightning F-40 (built around R-84 frame)
Soma Smoothie Upright
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2015 :  05:09:59  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was thinking probably a remote steering rod with a linkage to twist the rod going down into the drive leg which controls the steering of the hub centered steerer.
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jjackstone
recumbent enthusiast

USA
231 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2015 :  07:02:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a link to what I think is the previous iteration of the Ratracer that shows some of the steering mechanism. Probably similar.

http://www.bhpc.org.uk/Magazine/magazine-extra.aspx

JJ

Edited by - jjackstone on 11/01/2015 07:48:35
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John R
Starting Member

United Kingdom
2 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2015 :  07:45:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few details you may be interested in about Mike's bike. It is front wheel drive with the drive chain running inside of the monoblade front fork. The front hub also includes a hub brake. The drive train is home made and he was able to reduce the size and build it internally by using very expensive engineering chain with much smaller links. There is a step up drive using a 6 speed block and self engineered changing mechanism. The monoblade uses a normal steering tube (or as near normal as anything is on Mike's bikes) and is controlled by cables connected to a straight handlbar which you can just see in one of the photos.

John Relton
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jjackstone
recumbent enthusiast

USA
231 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2015 :  07:49:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well there goes my theory.

JJ
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2015 :  17:43:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, internal FWD hid inside the frame and fork? Amazing. Ideas for the Morciglio M2! I wonder if Mr Burrows saw Matt Weaver's liner with the internal drive? Of course instead of going to the front wheel it drove an over the shoulder belt drive.
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2015 :  04:02:19  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Im confused, which is the latest rendition, hub steer with internal drive or fork with internal chain? How would the hub steer and chain drive work, a cv joint? Yes, Thom all you need to do is make a custom drive and dérailleurs for #25 chain. I wonder if a thin version of #25 is available, or does one need to modify every roller and pin, otherwise it would be limited to 4 or 5 cogs, unless you use a crossover with a #25 primary. Yes, quite an inspiration, we should all spend more time in the shop.

C:
Tony Levand
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Runxner
recumbent enthusiast

USA
441 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2015 :  04:47:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Internal fwd is newest to me. Hub steer was RWD, Mike has no fear of mixing it up with his bag of tricks.

Team Low-Life
Lowracer Test Pilot/Evangelist
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2015 :  09:15:31  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The fork arrived yesterday and it looks great. Next step is to figure out if I already have a brake to use with it. There are no canti studs so I will need to find a "normal" road brake to use with it. I have a Bacchetta brake in my parts bin that I will try to use if its low profile enough. The Bacchetta brake is nice because the cable exits down instead of up. If that doesn't work I will hit up John for a set of the TRP brakes like these:
http://www.trpbrakes.com/category.php?productid=1031&catid=182

Edited by - warren on 11/17/2015 09:22:14
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2015 :  19:09:15  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
After a few revisions I think I have a 1X drawing that looks right. Next step is to cut some foam.

If I do FWD I will need to cut up my spiffy new CF fork to widen it 35mm. If I do RWD, the return chain will be just above the front dropout. I should be able to add a chain tube to keep it under control but it won't be optimal. Or maybe I should just run it under the front dropout? Decisions...
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Balor
recumbent guru

Russia
512 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2015 :  03:46:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

After a few revisions I think I have a 1X drawing that looks right. Next step is to cut some foam.

If I do FWD I will need to cut up my spiffy new CF fork to widen it 35mm. If I do RWD, the return chain will be just above the front dropout. I should be able to add a chain tube to keep it under control but it won't be optimal. Or maybe I should just run it under the front dropout? Decisions...



Widen CF fork? Can you describe how it can be possibly done with minimal damage?
Weight savings of nearly 0.5 kg is definitely NOT insignificant!
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warren
human power expert

USA
6051 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2015 :  15:24:53  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I redrew the 1X drawing, traced it onto some thick plastic sheeting, cut it out, traced the cutout onto the foam, cut out the foam, and glued it together. Time for some shaping/sanding.



It's not going to be easy to build 1-1/8" internal bearing CF head tube. Internal bearing head tubes have a beveled ledge inside the tube, and that's a hard thing to find. I ordered some CF tubing from China to at least give me a head start.

Balor - yes widening the CF fork will not be easy and will certainly significantly damage it. I built up the outside of the fork legs with some clay and was thinking about adding CF over that and then cutting the fork and etc. Now I am reconsidering that. Now I thing it will be easier to cut the fork legs and repair the larger bends by wrapping them in CF. It will not be as pretty but should be strong. Or... I can just go RWD. Fortunately I don't have to decide until the frame is nearly completed.
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