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Logistics of so many entries

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Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 10:01:45

As of Jun 15, 2012, there are 48 potential rider/vehicle combinations
We need to discuss the organization of qualifying and running the normal speed run sessions.

Vehicle Rider
Ace U of Toronto rider 5
Ace U of Toronto rider 6
Ace U of Toronto rider 7
Altair 3 Yannick Lutz
Altair 4 Aur�lien Bonneteau
Aurora Matt Baker
Aurora Peter Aumann
Aurora Will Hilgenberg
Backslider Barclay Henry
Bluenose Aidan Muler
Bluenose Todd Reichart
Bluenose Trefor Evans
Bluenose Victor Ragusila
C3H5N3O9 Ben Goodall
Cygnus - Beta David Verbroekken
Cygnus - Beta Jan-Marcel van Dijken
Cygnus - Beta Thomas van Schaik
Dog Pound John Jackson
Gemini Matt Baker
Gemini Peter Aumann
Gemini Will Hilgenberg
Glowworm Larry Lem
Glowworm Tom Amick
NoCom Streamliner Sean Costin
Norus Mike Mowett
Obree Graeme Obree
Ollinger Brothers 2.5 Thom Ollinger
Overzealous Gareth Hanks
Primal 2 Giovanni Rey
Primal 2 John Pocock
Primal 2 Ron Layman
Quad Rocket Jay Henry
San Jose HPV Club Meghan McNamara
Sven Jorgensen Vehicle Sven Jorgensen
Team Schroeder James Schroeder
Team Schroeder Kara Snyder
Team Schroeder Tiffany Underwood
Varna Battle Mountain Barbara Buatois
Varna Mephisto Greg Thomas
Varna Tempest Sam Whittingham
Varnator Jason Erickson
VeloX2 Jan Bos
VeloX2 Sebastiaan Bowier
VeloxX Ellen Van Vugt
Vortex U of Toronto rider 10
Vortex U of Toronto rider 8
Vortex U of Toronto rider 9
Wedge Eric Ware

Larry Lem

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 10:12:28

Suggestions thus far include qualifying on the frontage road, qualifying on Sunday, and prequalifying at events leading up to the WHPSC at Battle Mountain.

The frontage road is quite rough, but it is a possibility.

Qualifying on Sunday requires that the setup be completed earlier. This requires more volunteers and/or folks to show up a day earlier. Having an adequate number of volunteers is always an issue. A new suggestion is to have an official ride in each chase vehicle, and this means we'll need 5 more volunteers.

Prequalifying is a good idea, but we need events/venues to be planned. It is likely too late for that this year, but we should certainly consider that for next year.

Please keep the suggestions coming. We'll figure this out eventually.

Larry Lem

Alan Krause
recumbent guru

508 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 11:21:41

Oh what a wonderful problem!
Good work guys! and to Larry as well for organizing this list and topic.
Qualifying Sunday is something we might consider, there is still time in the permit/insurance process, Larry sites the biggest problem, volunteers...

Mule Shoe is a no go in my book, safety issues like the natural hazards of poles, paddle markers and the barbed wire fence, as well as the rough surface and potholes are enough, and the qualifying speeds aren't comparable to those on 305.

Teams may have to prioritize riders for qualification, best riders first, other riders as the week progresses.

Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1995 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 14:45:14

I don't want to anger my buddy Victor, and maybe Thomas, but maybe we should limit how many people can ride each vehicle. In my shallow thinking, this event is to see how fast any given vehicle can go. Not necessarily a chance for everyone with entry fee to make a pass. Put your bestest couple riders in there and see what your vehicle will do. The "C" in WHPSC used to stand for championship...
I really don't mean to piss people off, but if everone who owns a liner(no matter how slow) shows up just to set a personal best, this thing could get out of hand. It may be already. I think they should look at how many quality runs can be made, and set a cutoff. If I drive

Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1995 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 14:47:49

If I drive the 2004 miles to compete and I don't make the cut, I guess I should have trained harder and brought something faster. Everyone who wants to.drive the Indy 500 or ride in the world cycling championship doesn't get to...

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 14:58:26

When I was making groups of 5 for qualifying sessions in my own hypothetical starting list spreadsheet, I was selecting the two fastest riders for each bike. The third and fourth riders would have to wait until the next day. And I was giving priority to the folks that were likely to break 70 and maybe 80 in case we ran out of time for a 5th or 6th qualifying session on Mon morning.

This becomes difficult when so many machines are all-new.

Larry Lem

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 15:02:43

Also on the list of impractical ideas is having a longer event (beginning with Warren's suggestion of starting a day earlier, why not 4 or 5 days earlier?) or two different week-long events several months apart.

Larry Lem

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 15:13:30

Per Thom's suggestion, the idea behind qualifying was that there were only 10 slots in the evening session. We needed to whittle down who could run in the evening. We then started adding full-length runs in the morning.

Now we're having trouble fitting everyone into the qualifying sessions.

Perhaps anyone that wants to try to qualify should be allowed. But then if there are only 2 full-length sessions in the evening and 3 full-length sessions in the morning (Tue-Sat), maybe one will have to to be in the top 25 to make a 5-mile run.

The other problem is relating qualifying speeds to full-length run speeds. How does someone who qualifies mid-week displace someone who has recorded a speed for a full-length run?

Larry Lem

Speedbiker
human power supergeek

USA
1995 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 15:54:32

Also, in an attempt to show I am not totally evil, if the situation arises I will organize a qualifying event in the midwest next year. Having seen many, many backroads on the 3 or more tt series I race, I believe I can find a suitable location.

Alan Krause
recumbent guru

508 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 16:30:10

the answer to the last part of Larry's question is covered in the procedures, I think the old version is still available to down load here
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2012/raceinfo.htm
the one called "team information"

Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
337 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 18:10:06

The event got popular !! :D

Given that there are so many more riders than last year, we can definitely see how many people we can bring... All the people we bring have trained with the bikes and are reasonably fast (i dont think anyone will be below 60mph this year).

I think the idea of having a lot of qualifiers and everyone tries to make it into the top spots to get a 5 mile run is the only fair solution. Of course, this also brings the issue of how to deal with women riders going for records or trikes.

I will ask the team if anyone is willing to come without riding and volunteer.

cheers

Victor

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 20:56:42

I don't understand this rule for determining whether one gets to run in one of the 20 slots (two five person evening sessions, two five person morning sessions).

3. 305 starting positions may be bumped by faster qualifying entries on any day

If person A qualifies at 55 mph on the short qualifying course, manages to make it into the top 20, then posts a 75 mph run down 305, and the next day person B qualifies at 56 mph, does person A lose no longer have one of the 20 slots?
This could happen if person A has a heavy, slow-accelerating, but very low aero-drag vehicle.

Last year, the only issues we ran into were folks wanting to get into the evening sessions. There were plenty of morning slots as we increased the number of full-length sessions in the morning.

Larry Lem

Edited by - Larry Lem on 06/15/2012 20:57:22

Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
656 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2012 : 22:24:32

when the concept of qualify began the idea was the slowest and any non finishers had to go back to qualifying the next morning which in theory places them in jeopardy and potentially opens a spot for someone else

go back a few years in this forum to research this contentious topic

I believe this to be a fair and sportsman resolution

warren
human power expert

4229 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2012 : 06:10:24

One other thing which should be seriously considered is a third session in the morning, evening, or both. Yes this will mean more road closures and will need to be negotiated with NDOT, safety personnel, etc.

-Warren.

Alan Krause
recumbent guru

508 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2012 : 07:51:35

There is time to run 3 sessions of 5 in the mornings if the qualifying is done, there is often a good deal of wasted time in the mornings... I am looking into how to reduce the "road open" interval between groups, and if we are all prompt we may
(possibly, maybe, thisisnopromiseandonlyifyouarefriggin'luckysodon'twhineaboutwhatIsaidlater)
be able to expand our evening groups. I want to institute a practice where there is a team who is "on deck" and ready if there is a failure to launch by one of the scheduled teams, thereby not wasting an opportunity to run.
multi-rider teams may be pinched by the reduced interval between runs.
pray for no wind....

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2012 : 16:07:06

During a single half hour session, we spend just over half of that time making �runs�. (The sample schedule below differs slightly from the Racer instruction Word Document. Al Krause would know best as to whether the Word document is still accurate/could use a revision.)

0-5: Once the road is closed, we spend up to 5 minutes waiting for the last car to clear
3-7: Dave makes a 4 minute course sweep
6-9: Timing tapes are layed and taped down.
9-9: Tapes are checked and the first rider is launched.
9-19: We launch 5 riders between 0.5 and 3 minutes apart depending on the starter�s judgment as to how quickly folks will get down the course.
19-27: Last rider is caught 6-8 minutes after launch.
26-27: Tapes are pulled after the last chase vehicle passes the traps.
27-29: After the last rider is caught and moved off of the road, the road is opened.

Cycle time between riders is short. For every 2 minutes the road closure could be extended, another bike could be launched. "If things went well", we could launch 10 bikes during a 40 minute road closure. (need 5 more radios...)

Larry Lem

speedshaper
New Member

USA
71 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 09:09:02

One thing that would help is to allow only one rider per bike in the evening. No shuffling back to the start for a second rider in the same bike. Then the speeds would be segregated as originally intended. Teams would have to choose a single rider for their bike each evening. That way 10 different bikes run each evening. Yes, you have to develop a strategy, which we will be doing with Primal since we have three potential riders, too.

cbroome
Starting Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 10:07:30

Allowing only one rider per bike (or trike) in the evening poses an interesting challenge if two riders using the same vehicle are each on the verge of setting new records in their category - such as junior and female records.

Do we disallow one of these riders in favor of someone else who isn't a record contender ?

This is one of the problems that makes scheduling the evening start sequence such fun.

-- Chris Broome

LongJohn
recumbent guru

Netherlands
532 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 11:06:36

That would mean that teams with multiple riders just bring multiple bikes (Toronto e.g.) then they are still allowed to have all their riders ride...
Since we are on a tight budget flying from Holland we need three riders to actually affort to make the trip and compete!

I know it's about the bike, but in this case I would make it about the rider; have everyone qualify, if you don't make the cut you don't ride.
OR, you negotiate with other slow teams if you can use their spot.

I personally will make sure I will be in the evening sessions this year (and so will Jan-Marcel!)!

Alan Krause
recumbent guru

508 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 11:21:42

it's about the bike/rider combination. the bike/rider entity must qualify individually,
if the bike /rider combination isn't able to run (for any reason including taking too much time to convert to another combination) they miss and the next qualified will run.

also don't discount the morning runs, there is a magic time when the wind dies and the conditions are near perfect between 8:30 am and 930 ish .

also doing what we can to expand the number of runs each day.

also also... technically we are limited to 20 minute road closures...

Larry Lem
human power supergeek

South Sandwich Islands
1971 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 11:21:43

If we went with the "one bike per evening session" suggestion, Toronto could only run 3 bikes with 3 riders if all 3 qualified for the evening session.

It would be nice if there was a European and Austrailian equivalent of Battle Mountain and that we rotated the location of the WHPSC each year. It is currently not fair to the teams that have to travel overseas to Nevada every year. That would weed out folks from bringing slow vehicles overseas (not worth the cost) and would allow more underfunded and perhaps slower vehicles to enter a more-local event for a change.

Lastly, it's a good thing there is no such thing as a junior category (or a trike category or a masters category)! (...joking about how difficult it is to change the IHPVA rules)

Larry Lem

Edited by - Larry Lem on 06/26/2012 11:24:46

Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
656 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 12:19:15

If a bike and rider combo qualifies fast enough to make the field why should it matter where they come from ?

Speed rules

It is fair to travel (from Europe or elsewhere) to the fastest "known" course.

Anyone can find a faster course if they desire
all they have to do is :
survey, have written permission to use, procure insurance, have official observers, be a member, apply to the association in a timely manner ... etc.
piece of cake

cbroome
Starting Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 13:19:58

Larry wrote:
.....joking about how difficult it is to change the IHPVA rules .....

It is actually fairly easy to change the rules and we made some significant changes circa 1999/2000.

The Records Committee is an advisory committee. The IHPVA Board is the body that makes the rule changes. The procedure is to agree upon the changes and publish them.

The difficult and time consuming part of the process is reaching agreement.

-- Chris Broome

Victor Ragusila
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
337 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 : 13:53:51

my 2 cents: have a number of reserved evening spots for different categories: 1 or 2 for female riders, 1 for trikes, and the rest for anyone who makes fast enough times. This way, the record attempts happen in all categories, and there is a clear way that a racer can get in the evening spots, be fast enough.

For UofT, the way we are probably going to organize ourselves is to bring the 3 bikes, and assign 3-4 riders per bike. These riders will only ride that specific bike, and will compete against the other UofT riders. This way, we dont have to worry about qualifying a person on multiple bikes.

jnyyz
recumbent enthusiast

Canada
148 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2012 : 17:41:09

This is just a suggestion, leading off with a repeat of an earlier message that I wrote (new content after the stars)

the organizers are going to have to make some hard choices if everyone shows up

Last year, the maximum number of speed runs was 14 in the Saturday AM session, and 9 for the evening sessions on Tuesday and Wednesday. The number of speed runs in the morning is reduced if you have qualifying, and last year, we ran 15 qualifying runs in the Mon AM session, with no speed runs. If all 42 of the above run, this will take basically all of the AM sessions Mon-Wed just to get everyone qualified, which means that we have a theoretical maximum of 73 speed runs for the week. If we guarantee at least one speed run per participant, then we are down to 31 other runs......
just to provide some additional context from last year, in this picture:
http://jnyyz.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/allriders.jpg

I count 20 riders plus two for the Henrys, who had already left by Saturday night.
***************************

Proposal for run priority

Monday am qualifying:

Qualifying runs are done in order (or reverse order) of event results for 2011, (counting riders rather than bikes)

Seeding times for qualifying are set ignoring wind results.

Monday evening:

Runs according to top seeding times from qualifying

From Tuesday onwards:

All vehicles are limited to two runs per day, including qualifying.

All teams must indicate intent to run by 10 pm each day (starting Monday evening), specifying rider/bike combinations for the next day, and seeding is according to times. This means that all teams have the choice of giving a slot to a slower rider (if that rider has qualified), but they must meet the 2 runs per day limit, and the seeding is according to time. Some teams may be sacrificing a speed run to get additional team members qualified.

Tues AM: Qualifying runs done for remaining riders, in order of 2011 results, and then random assignment.

Tuesday evening speed runs: top four in order of speed run results (these run in the later session, and then seeding according to ranking in qualifying, with perhaps one slot reserved for trike and women. (What this means is that the top four times are guaranteed a late evening slot, and then slots are assigned according to seeding from qualifying)

Wednesday:

AM: all remaining qualifying, then speed runs as available.

PM: top six in order of speed runs, and then seeding according to qualifying, with perhaps one slot reserved for trike.

Thursday:

Just as Wednesday, but for speed runs, top eight according to speed runs, with perhaps one slot for women, and one for trike.

Friday onwards: no further qualifying, and all seeding done as per speed run results, with perhaps one slot guaranteed for women, and one for trike in either am or pm.

Rationale:

This is just my suggestion to balance the needs of the fastest teams to get the most opportunities to set records, while at the same time, allowing other teams the maximum opportunity to run.

Note also that this proposal will make me deeply unpopular with bike with more than two riders (including the U of T team). However, the worst case scenario for the speediest of the 3+ rider teams is that a given rider gets to run every second day.

http://jnyyz.wordpress.com/

Dreamer
recumbent guru

USA
541 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2012 : 23:10:52

Referring to Larry's post (6/17) there are a couple of options we could consider to open more rider opportunities on 305.

A. Dave's sweep is legendary but we could immediately launch a sweep car from each end of the course as soon as the road is closed so that the course could be opened 15 seconds after the last car clears the road. (saves 3 1/2 minutes)

B. Reconsider how we think about qualifying runs. There are no rules requiring qualifying runs to be officially timed which opens up other possibilities such as chip timing. (Saves 3 minutes laying tapes)Chip timing may not be accurate to the decimal accuracy required for official records but it could provide comparative results to establish potential rider/vehicle rankings for the record runs. The apparent advantages are:
1. No time needed to lay tapes.
2. Two riders could run at the same time with one in each lane. (Chase car rules would have to be revised.)

Referring to Larry's post (6/17) these changes could allow up to 20 qualifiers to run in a 30 minute closure with the time break down as follows.
a. waiting for the last car to clear. (0 - 3 minutes)
b. Sweep (included)
c. 4 minutes. 1st pair of qualifiers are launched.
d. (4 - 24 minutes) If we currently launch 5 riders in about 10 minutes by launching 2 at a time it might be possible to launch 20 riders in 20 minutes.
e. (24 - 29) minutes. Last rider clears the 2 1/2 mile course in 4 - 5 minutes.
f. 29 minutes. The road is open.

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