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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2015 :  19:52:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil that is one d''' good idea sir! I was just getting ready to package this up. My intent is now to add that feature also, would be really really handy for exact positioning of items when trying to precisely represent an existing frame or something.

--Export works pretty good now. I twist the model around a bit to orient it where AFD likes it but AFD, despite knowing which was is up reverses height and width. Can't be 100% sure but I think it's their bug, they have half a dozen I've noticed (which I should document and send to them).

--Output works better than it ever has before. Still may be able to get a shape that doesn't print well but I haven't brought one up in a while since a revamp a week ago. Was not making CNCs for the nose piece, does now. Also Warren, you make knife edged tail sections that's what you get.

--You can now build a canopy. You can make a very low slung canopy but it's a bit of a PITA. May revisit that some day and may add a windshield feature but that's how it's going out this time. You can turn the tug marks off separately for the canopy.

--files: major file save/load changes. You can still load/save separate rider, frames and shells but a project save has all the data in them and the bitmap saves are gone, much much cleaner.

Here's the folder structure

HPV Design
--Projects (only project files in here)
--Frames (only frame files)
--Shells (only shell files)
--Exports (also can be used for imports)
--Output (only output folders, each folder has the cnc and pngs of output)

As best as I could test it is backwards compatible for loads/saves but saving a project now saves only an "all-in-one" file. You can email your MySuperCoolBike.HPV (a text formatted file) and they can see what you did! A complicated HPV is a few K in size (very small files).

Got to do Neil's suggestions (thanks again Neil) and check the installs, couple days.




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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  09:43:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil: Positioning seems to be working well. Wheels, seats, cranks only show their center. Frame parts (pipes) show two numbers, one for the left end and one for the right end.

When you drop a pipe you could spin it more than 90 degrees (something you never need to do). If you do the display will be confused about left and right but it will still be "the two ends of the pipe".

In the image below the frame center was arbitrarily set. I plan to reference all my measurements from the front of the front wheel and ground but you could use the BB or any other handy location.

Of all the dadgummed things, found an error in the metric grid display. Had put in a constant for pixels per centimeter and goofed the math somewhere, was off by 6%. Inches looked right but if you swapped to metric, the cms didn't match the inches. This position display caught the error after a bit of head scratching :)

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Recumbent%20Postings/Frame%20parts%20position%20views_zpse2ac1otd.png.html]
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  09:49:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have not followed PC hardware trends the last few years so I don't know what is considered 'beefy'. I have a 2.8 Ghz AMD processor with 3.75 Gb RAM running Windows 7 Home Premium. I will view the training videos first and if everyone is agreeable I'd try the Fliuds63 software too. Thank you.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  09:49:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, one more thing. If you like setting the center to the origin of the grid (x=0, y=0) you can build your frame, when you're done with the precise measurements, reset the center back to the middle so the frame shows up in the middle of the shell designer (don't forget to export!).

You can always move it around wherever you need it. Placement readings are always relative to that center setting.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  09:55:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For my software it's fine.

AFD is definitely power hungry. I have taken to trying something on low-rez to get a quick idea then, if I really like it, set it up to run overnight on hi-rez.

You could do the same thing although I have no idea of Fluids63 speeds. BTW Ray never got back with me. Although he seems like a nice guy, he may not like the idea of transferring licenses or maybe just not set up to do it w/o manual data manipulation.



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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  10:47:02  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shooky56

Neil that is one d''' good idea sir! I was just getting ready to package this up. My intent is now to add that feature also, would be really really handy for exact positioning of items when trying to precisely represent an existing frame or something.



Thats exactly what I am trying to do. I finally have some time to try and check clearances of frame components with the shell I sent you and that will save lots of trial an error. I am still a bit puzzled about the shell import as it appears to come in at a completely different size to what it does in other apps, although the resize allows that to be corrected, Be useful to be able to enter the resized length so it could resize based on that.

It really is an amazing piece of work.

Neil
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2015 :  15:10:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil: Thank you sir.

Length of import. I'm not sure what version you have, nor what versions had some changes but I do size the incoming import to be about 8 feet long. Thing is, to do that required getting the longest dimension so displaying it isn't hard. Really not that big of an issue I think to allow setting it textually. I've deleted the old copy on my #1 test machine getting ready for imports but the new file format makes it so easy to hand over some "default shapes", I'm going to give several more.

But speaking of "other software", AFD had yours come in the size of a shoe box! That was w/o me touching it (and I've never exported yours). My shells also came in wrong, even smaller, more like 4 inches. I now scale the export accordingly and mine are coming in right. I should try to export yours and see.

Text position display: The positioning with the mouse is a bit painful. It took me almost an hour to correctly represent my frame (roughly within 1/4" precision in 3D space). Would be nice to add textual entry there also but that'll take a while to get all the bugs out so I won't add text positioning now. Once a person gets through the pain of getting that frame close to perfect it should be there for "the duration".

I'll take a look at adding the import size.... back in a sec...

<two hours later>It wasn't too bad, caught a bug in the auto-swap code anyway. If the swap settings don't come out right just manually set them till the do.

Anyway here's the interface for import along with the model. Had to invert the normals for lighting to show right.

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Recumbent%20Postings/Import%20screen1_zpspdsfq3ob.png.html]
[/URL]
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2015 :  11:37:40  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
hmm, the one I sent you imports to AFD at the correct size for me, I wonder if there is an issue with the local of the PC
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2015 :  18:53:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have emailed the new installation files to Warren. Oodles of changes.

Most notably, the file handling has changed drastically. Your old files should still load and you can still load separate frames, riders and shells (and save them separately) but quick save does not overwrite the other files. It condenses all the info into one text format file about 4K long and this is all you need to email to let others see your designs. The old bitmap directories are gone too.

The file system structure has changed. Under the old HPV Design, there were dozens, or hundreds of files created on a project save. Now there is just one and they are all placed in their own folder

I did not auto-write the registry to associate *.hpv files with this application BUT you can do that in windows (right click, open with, find my app and select always use this to open). From then on the *.HPV files will show a recumbent trike icon and you can click them in Windows and the app will open with that project.

Export has been beefed up. You can select what you want to export, any or all of the rider's head, rider, shell, canopy, frame and you can also do an auto-mirror image for the "mirror image trick".

Imports can now be sized by text although it's still a "try this scale until I get the right length thing".

For the eye-candy affection-ados out there, guess what? Our rider has grown a right side! Full featured rider now.

For those intent on building "reverse rider" setups, you can't reverse the rider. You can, however, flip the shell and export it that way. It's a PITA to be sure because I don't flip the tugs too. They still work but they don't align with the reversed shell. Despite that, it's doable and I did it for an hour or so today including exporting a 1000W->80mph reverse shell.

Included are starter projects for a LWB, SWB, Trike, Tadpole, Upright, Prone and Reverse riders-frames-shells.

Good luck!


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warren
human power expert

USA
6117 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2015 :  08:20:44  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a great update Wayne, I'll get those uploaded this evening.

-Warren.
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Larry Lem
human power expert

South Sandwich Islands
2524 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2015 :  08:36:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am interested, but you are progressing so fast and revising files so frequently that I'm kind of waiting for things to settle down before downloading again.

Thanks for your efforts. Huge efforts.

Larry Lem
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2015 :  12:22:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Larry when Warren gets this posted (thanks Warren) this is a good version to download as I've not changed a line of code in two days now (other than installation changes) and have no new plans. That's not to say during using it myself I won't find this or that needs a change but nothing in the works.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6117 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2015 :  17:30:55  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I uploaded the latest version, 1.4.4.0.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/HPV%20shell%20Designer%20Installer.msi
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/setup.exe

If you are upgrading, first run the uninstall from add/remove programs.

Download both files to the same directory and run setup.exe

-Warren.
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2015 :  11:52:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How do I contact Ray on a Fluids63 license? I tried a search with no clear result. Is this the same as raczynski.com?

When I get a shell design I may try to use Pepakua Designer to generate a skin.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2015 :  12:15:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fluids63: http://www.raczynski.com/pn/fluids.htm

Pepakura Designer: Not familiar with the software (just looked it up on google). Don't know, may work. Something you could do is export only the shell, run it through fluids and "add something" for the wheels and other externals. The latest version does allow creating a canopy, I was able to create a model that looked similar to Warren's Cuda line. If you use that method, beware that the canopy can "dive inside" the shell. You wouldn't want to do that because fluids63 would treat them as external surfaces. Check the canopy and canopy tugs in the shell designer to work a canopy, and check the canopy box when exporting to get it into your *.stl file.

If you export only a shell (which should export correctly for fluids63), you could get relative numbers for differing shells. That wouldn't be perfect as wheels may interact but it should give you a good idea if you're headed in the right direction.




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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2015 :  14:50:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, we will give it a try. Pepakura listed stl as an import format though not the first choice.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2015 :  15:46:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know Grant, the more I think about it (and I have not yet installed Fluids63 to try it), I've convinced myself that you can export the shell and wheels and either canopy or only the rider's head (that option is given in 1.4.4) and get a nearly correct external mesh. You'd be missing the drag of the wheels but all these runs I've been doing are missing pressure, rolling and viscous drag of the wheels.

If your wheels are outside the shell there's a lot of data out there but roughly 25W air drag for two wheels at 30 mph and perhaps 10W rolling (smooth ground). If they are mostly inside the shell you might halve the air drag (maybe even one-third). People in here forgot more about those numbers than I know and maybe you're one of them.

Oh dammit... I don't have a wheels only option. Oh I know, after you've designed the frame save that copy then resave the project, go back and remove the frame parts except the wheel. Don't think you can get rid of the crank but that's not too much extra drag. You can delete it but it refused to leave. I'll have to add that option (wheels only).


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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2015 :  08:30:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Warren emailed me that he had problems with errors when installing. The problem was the existence of your old save file area.

I'll prepare a new release to fix that problem. In the interim you can browse to %appdata% in a Window's Explorer and rename your "HPV Design" folder to something else (like "HPV Design old").

Then run the application and it'll start up fine.

After that, from within the application you can load the individual rider, frame and shell to get your old project. When you save the project now, it's all in one small file forevermore.

Apologies for any grief suffered due to this. Used to have a whole bunch of people to check all this stuff out for me, didn't even have to do paperwork most of my coding career, "We'll do that for you, you just keep coding."... ah the good old days...

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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2015 :  16:47:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, I can come up with drag data for the wheels. I'll save up for the CFD software and do coast down tests with tufts and camera.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2015 :  12:12:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Warren had caught a couple issues, now fixed.

Disgusted with the first canopies I rewrote the canopy code nearly from scratch. Canopies 2.0 looks much better is more customizable and also has a nicer appearance thanks to Warren's test reports. Most importantly they performed better. The new canopied HPVs are running about 6% lower power requirements at 30mph.

Warren had reported that the canopies looked bad from the back and not only was I creating their normals wrong, I was creating half the shell normals wrong. All of that appears fixed now and lighting and appearance is correct for the shell and canopy in all rotations (at least so far).

The canopy tugs are reworked and now highlight red when selected. The GUI is getting a bit crowded, had to squish the canopy radio buttons to fit an extra but the look isn't too bad.

Release probably in a day or two. BTW you're old canopies won't load. The old files load but the canopy shape is gone. You'll like your new ones better anyway.


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warren
human power expert

USA
6117 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2015 :  17:45:48  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wayne has been running some CF analysis on a shell shape that approximates my Cuda-W shell. I was hoping we could find something to do to make the existing bike faster. Here's what we found so far:

* Tilting the front down makes it slower
* Raising the nose makes it slower
* Raising the height of the fairing makes it faster.

I'm interested to see how the bike does with Wayne's new canopy which should be closer to my actual canopy shape, but the CdA I calculated from the area provided by his app and the CD generated by his AutoCad analysis runs is already pretty close to the CdA I estimated previously from my BM performance.

I could raise the body height of Cuda-W pretty easily, though that would make the landing gear non-functional so I would need to be hand launched and caught. Also it appears that if I changed the rear wheel to 20" I could lay way back and fit entirely inside the Cuda-W without a head bubble. That make me think about going back to BM with the Cuda-W converted to a camera bike.

Edited by - warren on 06/02/2015 13:52:15
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2015 :  09:45:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nose: Warren your Cuda-W's fastest was Nose in the same position as your original.

There were quite a few changes required to the frame to facilitate this.

Crank was moved, both wheels where shifted downward and the rear was replaced with a 20 inch. Seat was adjusted a few inches also but that's probably trivial with the exception that it may require some tinkering with the steer lengths to fit the arms properly.

I cannot help but caution that we should view these changes as perhaps one of the hundreds you've all seen where it looks good on paper but doesn't live up to it in real life.

...but it looks pretty good on paper...

The picture you are looking at is a 200% resolution run. I've found this resolution to most closely agree with known data for "not a lot of tiny stuff in the airstream" models. Although there's no such thing as "stable" in these runs Warren's median drag was reduced by 20%. Saving you all a bunch of math the net speed increase across the board was between 6.8% and 8.6%. He had a pretty solid median in the 7.7% range.

The snapshot link was a bounce at one of the lower iterations (I snapped the picture on "its good side").

Cd was (est) running between 0.129 and 0.133 and power required to 30 mph was 76W, 60mph at 608W.

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Recumbent%20Postings/Warren1-CudaW-12%20200z%203D%20V%20DP%20SP%20P%20S_zps6im2wfyf.png.html]
[/URL]

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2015 :  08:43:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony: In response to using the software. I'm sure there's a learning curve and it still has and probably will always have some bugs and a few things that will make you spurt a session of Tourette's.

The tool's purpose was to build the ribs... period. For the life of me I never saw it as a "what if" and many thanks to those who suggested exporting its shapes for CFD runs. What a great idea and what fun I've had. Thankfully decent CFD software can be had these days for reasonable prices.

CFD software changed my design. Not massively but the shell I plan to make is probably 15% slippier (on paper) than the first one off the presses.

BTW Tony there is a new release in the works but if you play with the current, you won't find the new one much different. Canopy is the biggest, the new one makes more streamlined canopies.
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2015 :  11:47:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am never impressed by bad language.. unless you can use rhyme and meter;)

I will save up for Fluids6 unless you can get an answer on a license transfer this month.

Thanks
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2015 :  13:00:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Grant he did not respond, let me try him again. He's never been really quick, perhaps hours to a day or so until this time where he never responded.
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