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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2015 :  21:24:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Doc: lol, np.

Release: Ran some checks on the sizing. Actually it looks pretty good. I AM honoring the shoulder and pelvic widths but don't allow you guys to edit those yet so that's on my cleanup list. Also cleaning up the UI just a bit. Added transparency colors to the color chart also.

Changed the file save algorithms and tested them a lot over the last few days. The problem was hard-coding paths would make them "non-transferrable" between users. I still don't like it and need to rethink it but you can now give someone else your files as long as they put them in your "%appdata%\HPV design" directory (bring up a Windows Explorer and type %appdata% in the address bar to see where that is). The problem that has me locked is the frame creating bitmaps. This task I found necessary as it's well known it is difficult to de-couple your bitmaps from the original file, that means that editing w/o creating new files and hooking to them means you edit the "non-alterable" bitmaps.

Making all these test shells found a couple bugs including the old asp that bit me a couple times in the past. Some shapes create ribs with internal curves at the top and bottom. These distortions are quite tiny and in the tail sections mostly. The big ones are on the order of 1/8" or so but I'm going to work on that top/bottom curve checker again. Have a new approach. Thought of a new methodology to slip ellipse sections on the top and bottom.

After that it's a release. Really want to get this out the door and start working on my own recumbent again now that it's warm.
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awilson40
Starting Member

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  06:37:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I cant wait, Great job and thanks for the hard work
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  12:02:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All welcome. I sent the msi's to Warren to post. My guess is he's at work and won't get a chance until later in the day (that is if he is back home yet).

At any rate I'll work on getting some training videos uploaded. Quick cheat sheet.

Menus: Designer->Frame.
click Reset (clears the frame parts).
click a widget (top center and drop it on the screen)
set wheel sizes before dropping wheels, set color before dropping anything.

once on the screen, left click a bike part (should see its name in the selected box near the top) left mouse hold to drag.

For pipes, drop on the screen then left drag to move, right drag to rotate. ctrl+center wheel to change length, shift+wheel to change diameter.

Export to send the new frame to the shell designer. A crank is required!

In the top view you can angle pipes outward and inward for stays, forks handlebars.

Menu: Designer->Shell

There are two default projects: To get started click File->Open->HPV Project File and select default_Upright.HPV

You should see the arm out of kilter. Let's fix it.

Menu: Designer->Rider

left click on the torso and notice the "width" number. It should say 30 inches. Click your mouse in that box, erase it and type in 11 and press the [Enter] key (there is no feedback that it took, I'll work on that in future).

Click the Export button and click QuickSave in the top. BTW I just noticed I do not properly update that text but quicksave does save the default_Upright.HPV file properly.

Menu: Designer->Shell.

File->Open->default_LWB.HPV

Let's mess with the shell a bit.

Click the check boxes "Show Rider Box", "Show Tug Marks", "Show Ribs". There are no ribs yet but they'll show up later with that checked.

The blue flags (sorry for non-colorblind friendly colors) mark the points you can move. The software will build the shell to fit. Basically the idea here is we have a hula-hoop about the rider's major bulk (rump and shoulders). We distort that hula hoop and this thing builds airfoils to fit. The airfoils are compound. There is an airfoil shape to get TO the hula hoop (which is maximum extreme in the Y-Z plane) and another set of airfoil coefficients to close back to the tail shape.

click one of the tugs or, alternatively, click one of the radio buttons in the upper right. The tug you select will turn red. Now hold down the ctrl key and left mouse button and drag the control point around.

You can do this for any control point but the shell will look weird unless you follow one important rule. The "Tail Start" tug and the "Tail End" tug should be placed very close behind (to the right of) the "Rider Top" and "Rider Bottom" tugs.

When you are happy save the shell or quicksave it all.

Click the Export button and study the window that pops up. If you click "Create Ribs" you should see blue ribs appear back on the shell designer window (if you have the "Show Ribs" box checked).

You won't see anything on the output window until you click "Create PNGs".

There are only a few things that may not make sense after a few minutes of looking. The "dice" looking icons select hole patterns for alignment pipes. Rather than allow a flexible pattern I just gave a few. If that's a problem we can add that to the list.

If you notice a gap between the nose rib and the fist "fuselage" rib, that's for the plywood thickness. The display rib is infinitely thing but the thickness of the plywood goes forward.

One very confusing thing for most would be the printer DPI settings. Depending upon how you do this, the least painful settings for most people will either be 72 or 96. If your printing software (Paint, Paint.Net or some other picture editing software) default thinks the proper size comes from screen pixel resolution, 96 will be the most common. If it thinks it's printer resolution then 72 works. Make sure to check this out to see if you are getting the sizes you expect.

Some software (Paint.Net for example) allows you to tell it the resolution in pixels per inch.

Back on the shell page, notice the ankling range and knee min/max angles. You can set ankling range here but the starting foot angle is set in the rider designer by clicking the rider's foot, right-dragging it to the rotation you want and clicking export (and save).

On the shell page, check the "Show Rider Box" button and slide the two sliders around to see what they do.

Also, select the "Shell Size" info tab and click analyze. Some interesting info there.

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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  15:04:03  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The new version can be downloaded here:


http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/HPV%20shell%20Designer%20Installer.msi
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/setup.exe

Download both files to the same directory and run setup.exe
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  15:53:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Already found a few bugs, not too serious and already fixed. I'm not going to pester Warren until this audience has given me some feedback.

Bugs or improvements:

--Edit boxes change to red until you press Enter and the data is accepted. Before this there was no feedback that you data was entered.

--I have to return focus to the main drawing screens after any click "off the drawing screen". Found a few I'd missed, you guys will doubtless find a few. If you have strange behavior that you can fix by changing designers, then coming back (which returns focus properly), that's most likely the cause. If you can repeat that and document the steps... that'd be great!

--If you want to make a new bike frame use the reset button, don't load an existing frame then highlight parts you don't want and delete them. In other words start from scratch. It is likely OK to delete the last part you placed and replace it. Fixed in the next version.

--You'll find the default_Upright rider has his shoulder sticking stuck out. I accidentally edited the reference rider rather than the "local copy" then delivered it. That's OK, it's a good lesson to learn how to move the arm. Go to the rider designer, highlight the torso and set the shoulder width down to about 13-14 inches (the should socket gap, the outside of the shoulders will be about 3-4 inches wider). Fixed in next version.

Another is I left the Developer design window "hot". Oops. You can screw up the rider if you mess with it. Just don't save anything. Worst to worst is it will require uninstalling and reinstalling as the MSI logic prevents installing on top of the same version.

Working on training videos.


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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  19:37:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A couple other things. I had forgotten that the crank arm length was fixed. Took a little bit to put that code in as well as code to adjust its length but now you can have a crank from 4-12 inches by going to the frame designer, clicking the crank widget and scrolling the mouse wheel (.05 inch increments).

Very important to put that in as it changes the size of the shell quite a bit. To put it in perspective MY SHELL went from 392si of frontal area to 313. The old one was a full 25% larger than the new one (not counting a canopy).

The other was you only see the project load from the shell designer, frames and riders don't show the new load until you leave them then come back. Simple to do and, since loading won't be 6 times a minute, I won't worry about it, just a heads up. If you load a project, do it from the shell screen.

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  19:45:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And I had a question for anybody with a clue. Seeing the quest for short cranks made wonder. With a short crank, the min/max knee angles would not be so far apart. This would result in a smaller area for knee clearance as well as reducing the foot box. Google had good info for healthy knee angles for weggies but I didn't see much for recumbents other than a general discussion about them on livestrong. They mentioned that the legs generally remain straighter on recumbents.

Anybody have a clue what their max knee angle is? Max is the angle when your leg is most straight. 180 degrees would be perfectly straight, 140-141 is the max recommended for uprights.

Seeing the comments from the majority here, I'm sure most know that larger max knee angles mean smaller needed knee area in the shell.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2015 :  05:44:11  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here's something I wrote about knee angles and crank lengths:
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/crank_angle.asp
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2015 :  06:13:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perfect!
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2015 :  06:56:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A bit of clarification if Warren's calculator produces angles different than what you see reported in the app.

I report two angles both are measured at the knee but are slightly different than those reported by Warren's calculator.

My guideline (months ago) came from here: http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm

First of all there is the angle when the leg is most extended (which I call maximum) and the angle when it is most folded (which I call minimum).

For clarity, in this discussion, I'll to refer to the above as EXTENDED and FOLDED knee angles.

BOTH of those angles have a maximum and minimum values in which you'll feel comfortable and produce best power.

Warren's calculator reports the maximum FOLDED knee angle (whereas I was discussing the maximum EXTENDED knee angle).

If that's not enough, my kinematics uses the foot length and cleat placement and ankling angle to define the angle between the hip, knee and angle while Warren's uses the angle between the hip, knee and pedal.

What I may do is put a check box so those who have previously used Warren's to calculate their best knee angles can decide where to put the seat on mine.

Also, over the course of the months it took to get here, several have offered to contribute. All feedback will be considered as time permits and thanks for all prior comments.



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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2015 :  18:12:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still working on videos. Completed a full set, roughly 30 minutes of "how-to" only to find the audio was bad. Now I didn't start this w/o checking and, although weak, it sounded OK but when I got done this time it had echo and (perhaps just the echo) sounded like reverb... go figure.

Pretty new to this kind of stuff but hopefully I'll get these uploaded soon. Made a tadpole shell that looked pretty good. I was amazed at how much these shells look like what's out there and am glad they do.

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2015 :  21:46:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speedy: Not easily. Unfortunately I chose GDI+ and DirectX, GDI is MicroSoft only. There are DirectX species available for Linux although I've never used them.

While making one of the videos I thought I'd make a tadpole just to show how to do it on the frame designer. It's not "dimensionally correct"... sort of like those artists on PBS who say "and a tree belongs over there" I put 3 wheels a crank and some tubing on the page, slid the rider roughly into place and dragged a shell around it. The tadpole is a bit long :) (I can hear the comments now "a BIT long??".

I tweaked the rider position and the shell a bit to get the frontal area down to 632si, height to 29 and width to 35. Here's some pics. There was a nice "code check" here too in that the widest part was pretty close to the 30% chord making this nearly a standard airfoil where the front and back halves match.

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Tadpole%202_zpskygovhic.png.html]
[/URL]

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Tadpole%203_zpselcmyl6q.png.html]
[/URL]

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Tadpole%201_zpsrjorvkpm.png.html]
[/URL]

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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  05:00:19  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Very cool. The only thing I have noticed about the shapes the software builds is that the tail is not really optimal. 99% of all streamliners have tails that are flattened vertically. This helps fair the rear wheel and keeps the fairing shorter. That may just be a stylistic thing for you, does the software support that?
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txusic
recumbent enthusiast

Spain
125 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  06:42:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
a combination with pepaktura and perfect for coroplast!!
congrats
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  08:47:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Flattened: Actually the shell builder does. It is my "post messing around that ruins it" and, in particular, it is the taught string stretching of the draw routines and "few points" that caused all the original problems.

Doesn't mean I cannot fix it. But here's what happened. I draw the shell like making strips of wide tape (that width can be reduced would help). Then I slice the strips like cutting pickle slices mathematically. This gives me about 64 points to defines the "circle shape". Then I ask MicroSoft to connect the dots. They do, but when they meet a point the algorithm makes something like half of a 4-leaf clover as it tries to make too sharp a turn. So I "fixed it".

What the fix did was destroy the integrity of the tail box airfoil but I didn't consider that really much of a problem. I'm quoting a Corvette designer here who allegedly in one of my vettes books and <paraphrased> said, "after a lot of experimentation in the wind tunnel we found there is very little we can do to decrease drag in the tail area and found that just chopping it off was as low drag as anything else we tried, so that's what we do". It sort of hints at "once dirty always dirty".

From the rider box back, the algorithm changes. The stripes go straight back once they pass the rider box. That means we "lose stripes" as it closes toward the maximum length. I had to put a check for "less than 5 points" for a rib because I just couldn't deal with creating a rib out of less.

My mental justification was "ah, the important part is spot on, let them foam it up and sand the tail box they want". Doesn't sound too cool but, to its credit, the software does keep the airfoil shape on the major surface area of the sides just not the top and bottom (where I scre... er fixed it).

But I think I can really fix it. It'll just be a bit slower in the Output (because I'll have to 'hand draw'; not that anyone particularly cares about speed). It will tend to produce "fin shapes" but they will honor the trailing airfoil design algorithm for the tail section (not that it was right in the first place, again my direction for how to close the shape was a lot less clear than the nose section).

If the fins are too sharp, the builder can simply sand off the sharp edge as they see fit. It certainly is easier from a crafting perspective to take some away from a rib rather than add to it.

For the two few points problem, we could go to a hi-rez version. Shoot, as fast as the animation is, it may not be much of a problem. In the origin of the thing I placed all the shell vertices in on object (still that way). Later on, during restructuring. I broke all the rest of what's drawn into lists of objects (there are 12 LISTS of objects in this now each item in the list is allowed the vertex max limit). That's important because no single directX object can have more than 65536 vertexes and THAT limit was what I used to set the stripe width. If I broke each stripe out into its own object I could have system limited resolution. That'd give me more points to define the pickle slices and better results in the tail.

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  10:53:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like the idea of breaking up that shell for better resolution but that looks like it'd take me a bit to do. The tape strip seaming code is pretty detailed and a couple hundred lines or so. Also, I noticed that a lot of places I iterate through all the vertexes of the shell. That's not major but the code expects the vertexes to be in one big array rather than broken across many.

But the "draw the curves myself" should be easier.

Did a rough SLOC count. Roughly 10,300 lines of code. I find this interesting because some of us coders have repeated (no idea of the origin) that 10% of the work is to get it to work, 90% is getting it so somebody else can use it. That, coincidentally is pretty close to my numbers. The app was working around 1400 sloc and "where somebody else can use it" around 10,000.

Of course I jinxed it myself. We have another addage. Any project that begins with "all ya gotta do is..." will end up being massive.

When I started this I thought "all ya gotta do is...".
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  17:08:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a bevy of adages ready all manner of situations.
"If it was easy anyone could do it and they wouldn't pay us the big bucks."
"Don't let the machine do your thinking for you."
"This software was designed by some highly intelligent people...usually at 3 am after consuming a pepperoni sheet pizza and 2 liters of Mountain Dew."
"The reason it is so hard to make something foolproof is because fools are so ingenious."
I can appreciate the effort you have made. I want to crack my knuckles just thinking about it.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2015 :  21:10:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speedy: Sorry I did not answer your prior. I'm not aware of any software but I'm not much of a browser for such things. Probably the one I played with the most was a Java Applet sponsored by (I believe) Warren years back when I first considered doing one of these.

Played with the tail shapes a bit but we just got power back after a several hour interruption due to storms so haven't done much yet.

Grant: "I just love standards... because there are so many to choose from..."

"#1 GUI design rule. The User never knows what he wants to do and he's constantly changing his mind."

There was once a story passed around about a young coder talking to one of the old gurus.

"How long would it take me to get as good as you?".

"10 years.".

"That long??? I'm willing to work six days a week, 10 hours a day.".

"Oh? In that case 20 years.".

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2015 :  12:37:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First couple of training videos

Installing:
https://youtu.be/Sh8k2_ibe7s

Brief overview:
https://youtu.be/9AIUniwPMt0

Bunches of things fixed from the last. Lot of file handling problems.

Among the fixes are I now allow the tail pieces to be "pointy" as per Warren's request. There were about two dozen other little details I fixed too.

BTW, it's in the video but your output goes to:

%appdata%\<myHPVproject_Output>

where %appdata% when typed in a window's browser will take you to directory where all files are saved including output.

myHPV_Output means substitute the name of your HPV project. For example, suppose you have the JoeSmith.HPV project file, your output goes to %appdata%\JoeSmith_Output

In there are a lot of files. Some are named CNC files, those should port straight to Mach 2/3 CNC interface software. The JoeSmith0.png, JoeSmith1.png... are the picture files which should be printable with Window's paint but be careful to check the sizing with a test print (you may have to change the Horizontal and Vertical resolution and click the create png button again.

The one remaining bug I know about is when you get small pieces in the tail stock, once in a while a point is dropped (I've got a division by zero somewhere is my guess) and the shape looks lopsided at the top.

Couple things about the tail. There was nothing but a guess about my tail shape. In my opinion, you're probably as likely to get there freehanding a shape as use mine although mine will give you a "back 2/3rds of the airfoil" curve (when the shapes all come out anyway).

Most of the stuff I read about hi-tech teams tweaking shape is about tweaking the tail shape.

The nose is good, and the tail is (IMO) a good starting point or rough guide for your actual tail.


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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/28/2015 :  14:34:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh, and I've found the bug. Wasn't really an error that caused the lopsided, just a failure to gather enough points when there aren't many shell stripes. The one I checked had only 7 points and was passed over as "too small to fix". Made a fixer for it. I'll wait about a week, see if I get any feedback on other things to fix before I do another delivery.

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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2015 :  05:51:00  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have made the 4/28 version of this app available for download:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/HPV%20shell%20Designer%20Installer.msi
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/setup.exe

Put them in a directory like "HPV Shell Designer" and run setup to install.

Please provide some feedback here to let us know if its all working for you.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2015 :  09:34:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Found a couple small bugs, nothing too serious although one crashed it, it was a "delete all" then look at the changes. I forgot to check for no frame items to display before trying to display them.

My shell size analyzer was flawed, I double dipped into the lean angle of the rider box. The error would show up at the surface area being Sin of the lean angle smaller than it should have been. Most of mine were about 85% too small.

=======

Need some help gang. My experience in this is comprised of looking at pictures.

The rider isn't representative of the many shapes we can find out there but I did built that designer knowing that the most important thing was to make sure we could hit the extremes properly.

Those of you who have actually poured yourself into these know where your problem areas are. Please update the list below or correct as needed. My plan is to use this to give an [analyze rider] button that gives you the spatial relationships, something you could double check with your body and a tape measure.

Perhaps using the center point between the two hip joints as 0,0,0 I could give relative maximums, for example.

The pelvis maximum then would be 0,0,7 for example, meaning outside edge of your hip was 7 inches left of center.

The shoulder might be (10,13,9) which means 10 inches behind the zero point, 13 inches higher and 9 inches left.

For the foot, I'd give the same number at its highest toe point and lowest heel point.

Knee at its highest.

Anything thing wrong with that or any additions? Perhaps the knuckle on the outside of the foot around the little toe area?

I could also use the crank as 0,0,0.... hmmm think I like that better because it adds proper seat adjustment in the mix.









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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2015 :  07:48:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Added the rider extreme feature to this software and like it.

Was happy with the shape drawing. After a painful amount of tweaking was happy with the tail ribs. Wasn't particularly happy about whether my real carcass would fit.

Of course nobody here is dense. The obvious thing to do (and this has been mentioned several times) is to print a rib (or several), mock up a piece of the shell to make sure you fit. My plans were to razor knife some cardboard and use the female remnants to block up something around my frame and check to make sure I fit in the thing. Even considered gluing cardboard strips inside the female shapes if it looked tight.

I'm sure I still will do that BUT, there's a new feature to this application that helps the warm fuzzy.

As mentioned prior, the rider may not look anything like somebody here. Not everyone is skinny and no matter what dimensions you use, you can't change the basic "skinny profile" of the rider. It isn't a problem. The most important thing is that you make sure you get your critical areas sized right to make sure they don't poke out of the shell.

As mentioned prior, I picked a few points of concern. They are:

The top of the Head checked at max Y
Shoulder checked at max Z
Elbow checked at max Z
Hip checked at max Z
Knee checked at max Y
Bulge of foot near the little toe knuckle checked at its min X
Foot at the big toe checked at max Y
Heel at min Y

All reported positions are relative to the bottom bracket. So you could sit on this thing and (much easier with a cohort) measure your spatial relationship to the bottom bracket. You'd write these numbers down and tweak the rider dimensions until the reported values from the software match. At that point you could rest more easily that the shell it designs is actually big enough to get you inside.

Those worrying about the frame parts also being inside will want to carefully design their frame. My main beam is 4x1 rectangular. I don't support rectangle building blocks but I plan to put two 1" tubes 3 inches apart. Really only the lower tube matters to check fit.

As for what the text above means, the "checked at" means it's monitored and the position reported is when the "checked at" is at its most extreme.

For example the big toe's position is reported when it reaches its highest altitude (max Y) while the heel position is reported when it bottoms out. The bulge at the little toe knuckle is reported when the foot is furthest forward.

The report areas isn't very big but it has a scroll bar to see all the values.

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Extreme%20Points2_zpsothrjep3.png.html]
[/URL]

The little blue pyramids bump around until they settle down at the extremes:

[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Extreme%20Points1_zpskdkyhuqj.png.html]
[/URL]



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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2015 :  11:53:08  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Couple of quick questions.

1. Is it possible to create a frame with 4 wheels ?
2. Is it possible to import a .STL file or similar to modify an existing body shape.

Thanks
Neil
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2015 :  14:53:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil: Yes and no. You can build a 4 wheel frame but the shell shape will be difficult to fit because of the tear drop. Perhaps some day I'll add an option for a "2nd rider box" which would allow straight sides between box #1 and box #2 therefore allowing any length to be shelled without unreasonable shell lengths.

Frame designing a 4 wheeler.

[Designer]->[Frame]
[Reset]

Select the wheel size(s) you need and drop 4 appropriately sized wheels in the approximate x-y position you want.
[Top View]
click one of the wheels and drag it to its proper Z location. Do that for all four.

Drop a crank approximately where you want it.

Don't forget, click the [EXPORT] button to see your changes!
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