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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2015 :  20:05:13  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thanks

thats part of the reason for suggesting being able to import a shell. sometimes it would be useful to design a shell elsewhere and use this to check rider clearances etc.

Neil
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2015 :  04:35:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah...
Import: You know I never even paid attention to my menu items for importing.

1. Importing an STL: That menu item is actually a remnant although the code is there and it works... you just cannot see it because it is disposed (deleted) as soon as you leave the import code. I could probably make it VISIBLE in a few minutes.

2. Modifying it: Now that's a horse of a different color in terms of effort but an interesting problem. I have an algorithm that works like this. The User "drags" a(an):

A. Starting point (the nose).
B. Midpoint (considered the 30% chord of an airfoil).
C. Endpoint (midpoint->tail considered 70% chord of a different airfoil.

There are probably a lot of ways to skin this cat. What comes to mind is the creating a set of curves from the shape that resemble the wires on a bird cage. You tug on the wires and all neighbors get pulled too. Basically, if you've played with a paint type program where you create two endpoints then pull around on the points between to create a curve... I'd do the same in two dimensions then put a skin on it for a visual 3D effect.

Irrelevant to this discussion would be the frame portion would be visible as a guide to where you wanted to tug.

It would not be an airfoil, except by accident but it would be a smooth curve (by the nature of a Bezier curve).

The above concept would not work. Not going to do that now nor making any promises but we'll see what happens about November when I go into hibernation and return to the arc trainer (lot more willing to sit at my desk and write code when it's nasty outside... I HATE cold!).

[Interestingly, the Bezier curve was popularized by someone doing exactly what you want to do. I had noticed this back when I was researching what curve smoothing algorithm to choose for the rider box hula hoop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_B%C3%A9zier

On top of Bezier choosing the curves named after him for smoothing car bodies, he improved GMs early CNC renditions for machining engine blocks while imprisoned in WW2.]
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2015 :  05:58:18  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Some tricks to using the app
To change the shell:
* Select turn on tug marks check box
* double click tug mark to change - it should turn red
* Hold ctrl-left click and drag it around to move tug marks
* hold right click and drag to move the viewing angle of the body

To change the rider
* click on each body part and change the length, then hit enter to make the change stick
* left click and drag the hips to move the entire rider
* hold right click and move the mouse to change the angle of each limb
* hit export to make the changes show up in the other editors

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2015 :  15:14:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Warren! I have more training videos I've worked on too.

BTW, editing error in the prior post what I meant was
*the above concept WOULD work* (but not make numerically correct airfoils).

Working on training videos. Takes very long to upload them but I'll post them in the next few days hopefully.
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2015 :  13:29:03  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shooky56

Ah...
Import: You know I never even paid attention to my menu items for importing.

1. Importing an STL: That menu item is actually a remnant although the code is there and it works... you just cannot see it because it is disposed (deleted) as soon as you leave the import code. I could probably make it VISIBLE in a few minutes.





that would be perfect
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2015 :  05:08:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil I'd like you to send me an stl file you have created. Hopefully you can get my contact info out of the members info (it's flagged to allow email from members).

Scale isn't defined in an stl file and I'll need to scale the points. It's a trivial operation but I'd like to have one from someone else to make sure it fits properly. Were it "just to fit on the screen" I could autoscale regardless of size. However it must align to "other junk" already here and for that I need to properly scale it.

What I'll need is your file.stl and the longest measurement (length for example).

If you send me the file and the longest measurement I'll run a sampling algorithm that determines the longest axis automatically then scales the points properly to look the size it should be on the shell design.

So the only two things I need are, for example:

myvelomobile.stl
86 inches



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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2015 :  06:53:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil I have the binary import working. Making a popup window for the user to shift the thing, scale it and swap axis alignment. I'll autoscale on the way in to fit on the page, yours was shrunk to only 3% (all the detail is intact from the i3D converter that made it).

Some changes to facilitate this were switches to invis the rider and/or shell so you can see your import. Also ignore the vertex attribute (which normally stores color in the newer STL formats) giving you a default translucent shell. Haven't hooked up the color selector to the import.

This was funny, the "standard" is text format and most of the discussion on this says that's the most successful export->import chance as a lot of things will read STL text files. Neil sent a binary version. Just as legit but, despite 15 jillion samples of text readers (I wrote my own months back), there were ZERO samples of binary readers so I had to figure it out... thanks to google's file formats I had the format, just had to get that right.

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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2015 :  07:00:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also the videos are on hold as so many things are changing they wouldn't be current. They are a PITA from start to publish so I hate to keep redoing them.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2015 :  08:47:18  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can help with a text and screenshot based basic tutorial once we get the user interface changes stabilized.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2015 :  08:59:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil I didn't make a frame for this nor modify the rider much (dropped his rump down a whisker) but here's what I got with your import (the binary one, I haven't pulled your last email in yet).

BTW, the settings are not saved anywhere, you'll have to do the inverts, set the slides and type the scale each time you restart the app.

First here's the new controls, added a shell on/off switch and a rider on/off switch. Also added a show import switch which I click on with a successful import. Notice I have several boxes checked on the new import page (can do it in 3 seconds now but it took me a minute to get it right the first time). The invert normals is used if the lighting doesn't look right (basically says which side of this faces out). If you get it inside out it'll look dull gray. BTW ctrl+left mouse is the light mover on the next release as per Warren's request.
[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Import%202_zpsxaeteofi.png.html]
[/URL]

Here's your shell with a two-wheeler under it.
[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Import%203_zps9z4xprjs.png.html]
[/URL]

And with a rider to get an idea of the size relationship. You'll have to set the scale yourself, once you get it right (try using the grid and checking the length, the rest will be scaled accordingly).
[URL=http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/shooky56/media/Import%201_zpsoq8dlrnp.png.html]
[/URL]
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neil.carter
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2015 :  13:19:11  Show Profile  Visit neil.carter's Homepage  Reply with Quote
looking good
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2015 :  15:11:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Uploading the training videos now. Probably be tomorrow morning before they are done. After that I'll get a release to Warren. Barring something critical that will probably be my last release for a while. With only a couple people giving me feedback, doesn't look like there's much interest in it and it did what I needed so I'm "off to build my own"!

To that end, we can all relate.

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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2015 :  16:21:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With the weather suitable, people are either outside riding and building bikes, trikes, or velomobiles. I for one greatly appreciate the effort that has gone into this project.
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2015 :  16:04:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Grant.

Have sent the most recent version to Warren, mostly likely he'll post when he gets a chance.

A couple things. The help isn't nearly as complete as it could be but I did provide some text help to the rider, frame and shell as well as videos for those and output, printing and an overview. You can keep the help up and the designer up at the same time. I could spend another 3 or 4 days on the help thing but the warm weather is eating at me bad and I have a one track (one track...er ping only) mind. I'm sure I forgot to label the video button, just click in the upper left area of the help display, it's a live panel to open the player. The rider option pops a picture up there.

Neil: No instructions for the import but email me if you have any questions, I could cut a video if you have troubles.

Some of the videos do not reflect the latest changes but the concepts are the same. In particular the rider is easier now, fewer entries, textual changes allowed. There were a couple of "I'll probably fix that before release" things I found as I made the videos. They are fixed.

overview: https://www.youtube.com/v/9AIUniwPMt0
frame: https://www.youtube.com/v/0mqxhcJC2Ps&feature=youtu.be
rider: https://www.youtube.com/v/lPxD-GkDdeU&feature=youtu.be
shell: https://www.youtube.com/v/WklUderxItQ&feature=youtu.be
output: https://www.youtube.com/v/o5Afd4IE7Jo&feature=youtu.be
printing: https://www.youtube.com/v/SJ5zj0n5YGo&feature=youtu.be

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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  07:53:51  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The third and latest version (V.03?)can be downloaded here:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/HPV%20shell%20Designer%20Installer.msi
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/setup.exe

Download both files to the same directory and run setup.exe
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  15:51:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know I said I was going to quit working on this... I lied. Dang it! I left that help thing incomplete enough it bothered me and I was very tired after a bout with sinuses and a couple nights sleep in which I even missed a workout.

At any rate I put one more day in it and, at this writing, I know of no outstanding bugs. There are surely some, perhaps many but I'm blissfully ignorant and can drop this off with a clear conscience.

At any rate, the things I added were some pictorial overviews of each help topic (roughly 30 separate image edits to comprise the collages). Double checked the youtube links also to make sure they are right. Added five text font and size options for the visually challenged.

Nothing changed functionally but I did notice I'd shifted two labels atop each other (scale and H-DPI) in the last output windows and fixed that.

At any rate I pestered Warren to post the lastest release. BTW the release version should correctly show in the "About" window or by navigating to the install folder and right clicking on the exe->properties->details. I synch my product and file versions so they should both read the same.

...and this time I really am done. Good luck gang, thanks to those kind enough to give me support on this. Hope it does some good for somebody if nothing more than the entertainment a cup, ball and string would offer.






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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3754 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  17:29:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Shooky. You get an A++ on the project. I hope some people use it. Just remember, very few people have the moxie to build a composite body for a bike. A quick count looks like only 4 posters on this thread have done so, and they probably don't need design help. So hopefully this extra technical help will lead to a few more builds.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3754 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  17:30:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Shooky. You get an A++ on the project. I hope some people use it. Just remember, very few people have the moxie to build a composite body for a bike. A quick count looks like only 4 posters on this thread have done so, and they probably don't need design help. So hopefully this extra technical help will lead to a few more builds.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  17:47:43  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The fourth version (V1.3.5)can be downloaded here:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/HPV%20shell%20Designer%20Installer.msi
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/download/wayne/setup.exe

Download both files to the same directory and run setup.exe
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2015 :  20:13:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Thom for the compliments and thanks again Warren for the work.

Boy I'd like to tackle the airflow model around it too but I fear it would be more work than this. Maybe next Winter. Have to go back and study hard on thermodynamics. Surely somebody has a particle analyzer out there already working that I could port in.

Anyway... until next Winter :)
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2015 :  06:55:47  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At work when something comes up that distracts us from working on our current task we call it a squirrel. Same deal as when you are placidly walking your dog down the street and then out of the blue he bolts for a small furry creature.

Yes, something else to ruminate would be the ability to export the faring shape to one of the open source CFD apps for analysis.

Edited by - warren on 05/10/2015 06:57:55
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warren
human power expert

USA
6112 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2015 :  10:21:33  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It's working pretty well now. Here are some screen shots from the app.






Warren.


Edited by - warren on 05/15/2015 16:02:53
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
882 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2015 :  12:52:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the app looks good ... bravo
if the shape can be exported as a binary .stl it can be easily imported into a wide range of machining or CFD software programs


Steve Delaire

http://molten3d.blogspot.com
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shooky56
recumbent guru

USA
545 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2015 :  08:11:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Warren: Thanks! You can angle your foot and that angle is honored in the shell BTW. Leg angles are "forced" by the kinematics but only the thigh and ankle angles are not exported. All other body angles are preserved in the export. Note the ankling angle can be changed too.

Steve: Thanks Steve. Looking into an export now, "gathering info".

Google's entry on STL formats does say binaries are more common. Had remembered that backwards (thinking ascii was more common). Actually ANY export form is not difficult so long as I understand the format. Told Warren I thought I could build an import in about an hour. The parts that worried me actually took 10 minutes, then Neil's turned out to be binary and that forced a binary reader... not one sample to be found. Fortunately one from scratch only took about an hour and about two hours to make the axis flipper popup.

The need to axis flip really puzzles me. I assume that Neil's longest axis in the tool he used was the x-axis. It is historically that way (unless you are building a totem pole or a snow plow). Yet, my import imported them in x,y,z order and had to reverse x-y then x-z and invert Y to get it to view "historically".

Figured there was some other standard out there for stl files other than x,y,z order. No, it IS x,y,z order but their x,y,z not only isn't standard "drafting" x,y,z, they arbitrarily swap them around based on model analysis on load in. So I did some of the same, could do more but going to leave it. It does correctly determine Neil's alignment but doesn't auto reverse the Y axis. That's OK, we Users can play around with the little clicky buttons until we're happy. What I'll export is the "straightened up" model. I have to feel that AutoDesk isn't trying to be cutsey and sticks to hard-core mathematical alignment by default (if you say X... you MEANT X, not, at some of the apps do, oh... but it looks so pretty this other way). If it doesn't it surely has methods to swap axis too.

BTW the "looks so pretty" sarcasm really is unfair. Some of these STL handlers are intended for 3D printing or CNC output and they defintely DO want to auto-flip for the best fit on the target machines (low Z for example). My sarcasm is born of the posterior pains the non-standard flipping has given me.

At any rate I've downloaded AutoDesk's CFD app, let me see what I can import into that before I work on an export.

"SQUIRREL!!"

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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
882 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2015 :  10:47:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my normal work day one single piece of software almost never takes a project from start to finish.
Often something generated in one software has to be cleaned up or changed with some other piece of software before it can be machined.
A good open source .stl checker is Netfabb. It can be used to scale, change axis, check for inverted normals etc.



Steve Delaire

http://molten3d.blogspot.com
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