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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  10:25:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A fascinating article on the subject of non-circular pedaling systems:

http://lefthandedcyclist.blogspot.com/2014/07/graeme-obrees-beastie-lure-of-linear.html
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2935 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  12:01:12  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is not new:

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~otec/
http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0013/sdv.pdf

C:
Tony Levand
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3760 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  17:47:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But it sure is cool! It looks fun to build. I wonder if I can find a pic of the Selecto-Cam from the 80s. A pretty good attempt at linear drive for a df.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3760 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  17:51:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look at this, Tony. It's next design, The PowerCam was very much like the present day Rotor Cranks.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Facet_BioCam/biocam_frameset.htm
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purplepeopledesign
recumbent guru

Canada
685 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  18:39:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dont' forget the Alenax

:)ensen



Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it.

Video of my trike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSLRD_2vzc
Photos of my trike
http://www.flickr.com/photos/purplepeople/
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2017 :  18:49:41  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I been to 3 county fairs and ain't seen nothing to beat this thread.

velosRus.com
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3760 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  03:01:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think that IF Osiris is serious about building a velo, and has the skills and means, the K-Drive is his best option. I believe it is the best, most proven unit.

https://youtu.be/tFvKyOwfFQU
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2935 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  06:13:05  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, but Lee Wakefield took the K-drive out of the Wooden Fish on Wheels and replaced it with short crank arms,http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/gNickGreen/nick_green.htm

quote:
The Windrider ACX has features of superb hill climb performance, even a young lady could beat male road bike riders in raining uphill situation at Stage 3 of Tour de Chiba 2010, Japan. The picture was taken before the pass of Route 465 that run from the east to the west by "Oikawa Police, Ootaki, Chiba, Japan". The grade of the uphill can be known by the Google Earth. From Oikawa police, the course took Route 178 to the south aiming at the coast of the Pacific Ocean. Just after the intersection, the grade of the uphill changes to 15 %-20% which lasts about 200 meters, where many riders obliged to walk except SDV team comprising of four Windriders and an Alpha.



C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 08/03/2017 06:19:48
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  06:57:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alevand

Yes, but Lee Wakefield took the K-drive out of the Wooden Fish on Wheels and replaced it with short crank arms,http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/gNickGreen/nick_green.htm


Judging by the photo of his bent, the K-drive is still on it.
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  07:16:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

I think that IF Osiris is serious about building a velo, and has the skills and means...


I have none of the above. I'm just intrigued by the concept of a velomobile, so I tried out a couple of ideas. The first was a racing shell wrapped around the M1 Thundervolt. John Morciglio saw it and e-mailed me to say that he could build it for me at an estimated cost of $10,000.



The second concept was a more practical velomobile, using my eliptical drive and a 700C rear wheel:

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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3760 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  08:01:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Morciglio is a genius builder, but since many of his naked bikes are $7k, doing it for $10k would surprise me.
You might not be a builder, but your CAD skulls are impressive. I hope you are rich so you can get one of your designs built.
Warning: designing a beautiful bike doesn't guarantee desired performance. Also, nobody tells Morciglio what to build. He builds his own design, as far as I know.
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  09:13:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

Morciglio is a genius builder, but since many of his naked bikes are $7k, doing it for $10k would surprise me.


I know. I inquired about having him build me an M1, and the total came to over $8,000. That he could build the carbon fiber outer shell and turn it into a three wheeler for just $2,000 more is very surprising.

quote:
You might not be a builder, but your CAD skills are impressive. I hope you are rich so you can get one of your designs built.


I'm not rich, but if I could come up with a decent design, I'd want to build it myself. I started designing when there were no CAD systems yet, so I had to build physical models of everything. It gave me immense satisfaction that I never got from creating computer models.

quote:
Also, nobody tells Morciglio what to build. He builds his own design, as far as I know.


I know a designer on the west coast who asked John if he'd be willing to build a recumbent of his own design for him, and John agreed. I don't know if he ever went ahead with the project though.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6118 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  16:48:16  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Those are beautiful! I'm sure that if they came to fruition, riders would overlook the linear drive just because they are so cool!
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  18:31:23  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I even have a bucket full of machined V. velocipede parts for a front boom experiment to try sometime.

[/URL]
---------------------

velosRus.com
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2017 :  18:38:29  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Osiris

quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

I think that IF Osiris is serious about building a velo, and has the skills and means...


I have none of the above. I'm just intrigued by the concept of a velomobile, so I tried out a couple of ideas. The first was a racing shell wrapped around the M1 Thundervolt. John Morciglio saw it and e-mailed me to say that he could build it for me at an estimated cost of $10,000.



The second concept was a more practical velomobile, using my eliptical drive and a 700C rear wheel:





Why not just buy a velo shell and build your hardware in? Were you on brol sometime ago with same thread?

velosRus.com
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  05:36:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Those are beautiful! I'm sure that if they came to fruition, riders would overlook the linear drive just because they are so cool!



Thanks Warren. You'll be relieved to know that only the green one was designed around an elliptical drive. The racing shell for the blue one was designed around a conventional drive train.
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3760 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  08:43:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The blue one was clearly (and very smartly) based on a fast design. I expect it would go very well, but forming that clear canopy would be a real challenge. Someone might be able to do it, but I don't know who(I think I can do it). As Tony, Warren, and myself can tell you, building a fully enclosed bike or trike is a major project! Just the molds forntheb9' long body takes hundreds of hours. But I'd love to see your design built.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6118 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  09:48:48  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It looks like the blue fairing is designed to use a flat wrap windscreen. Is that right?
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  10:54:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

It looks like the blue fairing is designed to use a flat wrap windscreen. Is that right?



I'm not sure what you mean by a "flat wrap windscreen". In both these models, I envisioned the windscreen being one piece of plexi-glass with the edges painted to match the body of the vehicle. The clear portion is just the unpainted part.
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  11:14:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

The blue one was clearly (and very smartly) based on a fast design. I expect it would go very well, but forming that clear canopy would be a real challenge. Someone might be able to do it, but I don't know who(I think I can do it).


I saw how it's done in a video in which they were making canopies for gliders. They begin with a negative mold, then a large sheet of clear plastic (plexi-glass?) is placed below it and heated. When the plastic becomes soft enough, air is pumped in until it fills the mold completely. Once the plastic is cool and maintains its shape, it's removed from the mold and its edges trimmed off.

quote:
As Tony, Warren, and myself can tell you, building a fully enclosed bike or trike is a major project! Just the molds forntheb9' long body takes hundreds of hours. But I'd love to see your design built.



These are just concept models. Before even thinking of building one, I would want to do some serious structural and aerodynamic flow analysis to determine if it actually works. Unfortunately the software module just to do the flow analysis costs around $100,000, so unless I win the lottery...
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warren
human power expert

USA
6118 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  12:04:05  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Flat wrap means you cut your windscreen out of a single sheet of plastic, and wrap it around your vehicle. No blowing required. I have seen some very nice aero windshields crafted this way. It looks like the front of the screen on your blue trike is already flat, and the sides could be flat if they were a little narrower vertically.
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  14:18:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warren

Flat wrap means you cut your windscreen out of a single sheet of plastic, and wrap it around your vehicle. No blowing required. I have seen some very nice aero windshields crafted this way. It looks like the front of the screen on your blue trike is already flat, and the sides could be flat if they were a little narrower vertically.



It's definitely not flat. In both designs, the windscreen follows the same contours as the body. They were originally one piece:



By the way, the image you see inside it is Phil Plath on his M1. I used it as a template so that I'd know the dimensions I needed for the shell. A year or so later, Phil listed that very M1 here in the for sale section, and it now sits in my bedroom.
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Garrie L Hill
human power supergeek

USA
1692 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2017 :  20:17:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Flat wrap vs formed, visual definition:
http://wisil.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6776

Vacuum forming a canopy:
http://wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/geebee/geebeevarna.htm

Female cavity vacuum forming using PETG isn't that difficult.


Garrie "carbon based lifeform" Hill
HPRA Co-Dictator of the East
for pics of some of my time and money sucking projects
http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/cfbb/
and videos
http://vimeo.com/5513519


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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2017 :  03:22:23  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Garrie L Hill

Flat wrap vs formed, visual definition:
http://wisil.recumbents.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6776

Vacuum forming a canopy:
http://wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/geebee/geebeevarna.htm

Female cavity vacuum forming using PETG isn't that difficult.


Garrie "carbon based lifeform" Hill
HPRA Co-Dictator of the East
for pics of some of my time and money sucking projects
http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/cfbb/
and videos
http://vimeo.com/5513519






Do you have anything to do with tye geebee plane?

velosRus.com
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2935 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2017 :  05:29:36  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
By flat they mean a 2D curve, cylindrical, conical, hyperbolic like the Wooden Fish on Wheels, curved would be 3D which the material has to be stretched to form the canopy, spherical, elliptical..so it would be harder to try to blow a very specific canopy with the bubble method. Gary, could it be vacuum formed over a CNC machined core?

They are really cool looking, but the are turning radius is not practical in either. The CG should be placed such as there is 2/3 weight on the front in a trike, for cornering ability. I you draw a line from the front contact patch to the rear one, and measure the projected perpendicular distance to the CG and divide the CG height by this, you'll get the G force where the trike begins to tip. Ideally, it would equal the coefficient of friction of rubber on road. Not much "English" allowed inside a fairing. Big canopy are greenhouses in the sun, imaging pedaling in your car on a sunny day with no ac and waiting at a light. The plastic is easily scratched, which make it impossible to see the road with oncoming headlights or in the rain. Fogging on the inside is a problem, especially on cool humid days, so most practical velomobiles have removable and storable tops. Of course such a beautiful fairing would need a chassis with a suspension.

C:
Tony Levand
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