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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2017 :  07:17:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love how easy you guys make forming a canopy sound so easy! Sure, I've seen Garrie pull canopies first hand. But where did he get the mold? From Georgi. How many canopies don't turn out well? Now, let's apply that to Osiris's design. In addition to the monumental task of making molds for his vehicle, now he has to make a very large mold to blow or suck a canopy. Then he has to learn to make a good canopy from it. I'm sure Garrie and Warren remember our early canopy experiments. A lot of PETG ended up in the trash! How much did the million dollar glider company spend developing their canopy? Is Osiris wealthy? Garrie has some dough, maybe he will help Osiris out (he is the most qualified here). Did you notice that very few commercial velomobiles have canopies? Guess why!

Basically what we have here seems to be someone who is very talented at CAD modelling, but is way behind the curve on realizing the huge task of building what he envisions.

Questions:
Have you ever built a bicycle? Or more specifically, a recumbent trike? Drivetrain, steering, brakes, seat, and frame. Can you TIG weld? Machine parts? Have a fabrication shop?

Will this be frame and shell, or monocoque? (way more molds!)

Have you worked with composites? Have you ever built a mold? Have you ever built a 9 foot long mold? How will you shape the plug for the mold? By hand using section templates? Or maybe you have a 10' cnc mill (I do ).

Do you have the design/build experience to ensure everything will work when you're done? Things like wheel turning clearance (lacking on the M1 velo model), proper handling, braking, drivetrain performance, ergonomics, visibility.

Do you have a very roomy, well equipped workshop? People like Garrie, myself, and others can answer YES to all or most of these questions. A few of us have the ability to build what you design. But few of us have time for someone else's project. And honestly, I wouldn't begin to do it for twice the $10k JM quoted(but I would consider doing it with a hand formed aluminum shell, tube frame, and clever flat wrap windshield for $10k-$15k, gauranteed to work). If you outsourced the whole thing I'm sure it would cost over $50k. Maybe way more.

So if you really want it, either pay someone huge bucks, or spend big bucks and a few years putting together a shop and developing your skills. I sincerely hope you do. We need more builders and less keyboard jockeys.

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alevand
human power expert

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2017 :  07:58:34  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You have a 10' CNC mill! 3 axis? What do you charge to cut foam?

C:
Tony Levand
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
526 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2017 :  10:27:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is a classic make or buy decision. What parts and components can you easily make or are willing to learn how to do? Price things like a canopy from Blue Sky Designs. CAD drawings are a first step in the design and manufacture process. Speedbiker is correct that it takes tools and practice to develop the capability. Even touch typing takes practice especially if one is left handed as I am. Twenty years experience in manufacturing whether it is bikes, rail cars, or aircraft will develop the total skill sets to build a high tech velo. Great vehicles begin as great ideas that get tried and tested. Yes I used to operate and program CNC mills.

Has anyone seen a system where the pedals move a rack and pinion arrangement?
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2017 :  11:52:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tony,
I have access to large format cnc horizontal mills where I work. The biggest is a Toshiba with 140" of X, 80" of Y, and 60" of Z axis travel. The shop has a reputation of helping highend projects like OSU's Buckeye Bullet 360 mph electric streamliner. I can personally obtain permission to use machines other than my own designated machine for special projects. Mine is a 49" X 39" X 30" CNC, which I can use on off hours. Or at least these were the rules before our company was sold last year, though things seem the same. Requests outside these conditions fall under normal business practices. My machine bills out at $100/hour, including all setup and run time. Add to that engineering time for cnc programming, special tooling or fixtures, materials, etc. Stillwater Technologies is a job shop and we'll will run any job. But costs quickly exceed that of a hobby builder. Well, unless you work there :-)
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2017 :  12:24:55  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ditto: speedbiker

Heres one of the best straight window canopies 1/16th.

[/URL]
--------------

velosRus.com
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  06:26:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you are clever it is amazing what you can do with single curve windows. I'm sure if Andrew experiments with it he can do something cool.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  07:19:13  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes , definitely speedbiker.

Cell cast acrylic only. Win or loose i will attempt front window pretty (30 days) soon. My oven is half finished. If i loose i will do above photo canopy. But it will be fun to learn and @320 for 10 minutes then into a female mold. We will see. One can put 1/16th felt in mold too with lil' fabric spray glue. Cleans off mold easy with frekote tool cleaner. The acrylic is hour away @$65 per sheet 4x6 foot and they will cut sheet in your pieces if l want. My oven is 46" sq & walls are 2&1/2 feet. The heat elements hang on ceiling. The acrylic lays on 100% cotton. At temp, pull out and lay into female mold. Should cool within 15 minutes.

One can make many parts with above method if ya have a mold. Colored acrylic too. Console panels, chain canal covers, air deverters, visors, etc..

My other learning curve is trimming the 1/16th acrylic but ive been to pterovelo shop and know Frans. He can tell me on the phone. I flew to ok city ok, year 1/2 ago and spent time with him. One great city, that ok city, OK.. l love that place.
------------------

Heres the scoop, so you wanta make cf velo unibodies: (REMEMBER SOMEONE HAD TO SPEND MONTHS MAKEING A PLUG THAT MADE THIS TOOL/MOLD) you will need a 2 pieces mold like pic below on a rotisserie and wheels. Plenty of lights and air conditioning & warmth all winter long. I have a 53' tractor trailer full of molds. BD-5 jet airplane.

[/URL]
_____________________

[/URL]

I will make the molds for 90 thousand dollars. All pieces and build first one.

velosRus.com

Edited by - carolina on 08/07/2017 08:05:02
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  14:02:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem with acrylics is that they are banned by every racing organization in the world(or almost). This is becausethey shatter into sharp pieces when broken. Sure, cell cast acrylics have a super consistant shape and consistancy, and make a more perfect window. But you risk injury in a crash. No thanks! I've worked with it and have seen it's shatterability. My fist liner in 1993(and reused in 1997) had an acrylic canopy formed by Aircraft(previously Fox) Plastics. Cracking was a constant problem, and when it broke it was lethal. Damn the perfect optics, only polycarbonate and PETG for me!

As wild as $90k may look, that's about right. We've machined metal molds where I work. They were smaller than a velo by far, but still cost $100k.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  14:09:27  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well me dun started the cf canopy project. I haf to finish. What would u use? I never heard of the canopy velomobiels have wrecks or incidents about windshields shattering. Dont think frans every had problem. But they can break. Your not real heavy handed are you? The one owner velo guy would probably have no problem & w/garage and riding seldom.

velosRus.com
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  18:35:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bend a piece of PETG, Polycaronate, and acrylic and see what happens. Wear gloves and safety glasses with the acrylic. What do you consider acceptably safe? You can vacuum form Lexan and PETG.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  19:15:07  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Iam just gonna lay hot acrylic in female mold.

velosRus.com
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TVM
recumbent enthusiast

USA
173 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2017 :  19:22:15  Show Profile  Visit TVM's Homepage  Reply with Quote
TEN THOU???

Have to see a COPY of that e-mail :-)

Quoted 14000.00 to Chris Evans, ( a friend and former riding buddy)

Spent almost two years (on his free time and of hours) with a guy from Waterford that works for Boeing in their 1/6th scale (???) wind tunnel.

His day job is designing wings for jet fighters (25 yrs.exp)

If we would not have moved I am pretty sure I would have built a Velo by now?

My vision was for a Delta. Probably a tilter.

Have 2 designs that would partially (1) or totally (design 2) tuck the rear wheels within the 22" max width body.

Both were based on using a front frame section (not unibody)
For ease of build, to ISOLATE road vibrations, AND the ability to ride without the shell for practice. (experience is helpfull if not NEEDED to master going from locked to free tilt)

I have been "leaning" towards the tadpole design.

Next off-roader will be full tilt, suspension and large wheeled.

Maybe I was thinking having 10K and getting a couple done would be better than not going forward???

This front frame section (without added splitters shown) fits in the Varna shell;
[URL=http://s363.photobucket.com/user/JohnMorciglio/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-07/20170731_170254_zpsci6w3vjk.jpg.html][/URL]

Up to 520 front wheel.
Never really been aproached with any actual prints to bid someone elses design. ( LOTS of talkers)

I would design around existing (and available) aircraft canopy if needed.

JM
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  02:50:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's a beauty John. I'd love to see you do a tadpole velo, but obviously that's a big, expensive project.
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  05:13:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Requests outside these conditions fall under normal business practices. My machine bills out at $100/hour, including all setup and run time. Add to that engineering time for cnc programming, special tooling or fixtures, materials, etc. Stillwater Technologies is a job shop and we'll will run any job. But costs quickly exceed that of a hobby builder. Well, unless you work there :-)



Why is CNC machining so expensive? I've contacted a couple of local shops to see if they'd be willing to make a GPS mount I designed, but the quotes were ridiculously high.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  07:23:20  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not cheap:

[/URL]

Most will duratec the plug for you. Symmetrical , your design.

Lol, but this is just a plug. Can be years of work till second or third velo is complete and perfected.
________________

velosRus.com
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3704 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  10:49:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andrew. An "affordable" CNC mill like a Haas VF-2 costs over $100k. The big one I run is more than double that. Low buck shops bill at $45/hr, total floor time. Then there is programing time and tooling. Plus a little for materials. It adds up fast. Rarely worth it for a single part unless is medical or aerospace.
If you want something made go to a.vocational school or a guy with a machine in his garage.
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  11:25:25  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've had work done by Proto Labs.

C:
Tony Levand
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  11:44:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is all very depressing. It's beginning to sound like you have to be a millionaire to build something.
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
526 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  13:16:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you are only interested in a proof of concept prototype then find a used trike and install a linear drive train after doing some calculations. There are CFD programs to compare body shapes. Coroplast body panels are inexpensive and you can do some coast down or testing. When and if you find a shape and a potential market then look at production methods and costs.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2017 :  14:43:31  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Osiris

This is all very depressing. It's beginning to sound like you have to be a millionaire to build something.



And retired with no bills and shop and tools and constant never ending ordering from minimum of 4 companies, be able to run errands alot, have a expert welder and machine shop ready when you are. And 7 days a week day and short nite shift too.

Like grant said, buy used velo or trike and go @ it.

velosRus.com
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alevand
human power expert

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2017 :  04:19:52  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With such keen CAD talent, maybe a design of a cloth velomobile made that can be built in one's garage. https://www.wired.com/2008/06/bmw-builds-a-ca/


https://victoriancollections.net.au/organisations/australian-gliding-museum#collection-records




C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 08/09/2017 04:30:00
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Osiris
Starting Member

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2017 :  05:01:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cloth might be the right direction to go in, Tony. I may try one of my own car designs for an added challenge. Not sure yet where the pedals will go though.

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alevand
human power expert

USA
2877 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2017 :  07:08:00  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The BMW is real, as is the blimp.

C:
Tony Levand
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Grant-53
recumbent guru

USA
526 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2017 :  08:29:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The cheapest and easiest skin I have come up with is 1 inch hex mesh fencing between two layers of 0.005" plastic tarp material bonded with contact cement. The plastic wrap material used to ship plywood works fine. Make the bulk heads from luan between sheet aluminum, honeycomb aluminum, or thick hex cell coroplast. I have used 5/8" OD PVC tubing from the plumbing supply store for light duty ribs. Since my family lives at 2/3 the national poverty income, we get clever with cheap materials and value management. Check out some of the paper model software to help with skin layout.
Because it is hilly here at 42N, 72W BMX is the dominant form of racing. A light weight linear drive could make recumbents better climbers. A 40 mph pedal car would be awesome.
A trip to NC is in the planning stages.
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
517 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2017 :  10:20:10  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Cardboard covered with cf or fg.

velosRus.com
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