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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  07:11:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So what you are saying is not to allow the wheel to turn any more than 45 deg? The current design allows enough space at the nose for the wheel to move 45 deg.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6294 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  09:28:53  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, that bike would be heavy, it’s just an example. You could build something similar out of CF that would be much lighter, like the Blood, Sweat and Gears LWB ‘liner that Rick Wianecki built.

Unless you are building a trike, you can’t ride slow enough to make the extreme steering angles useful.
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  11:10:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ok thanks... Is the Moby Cf?
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  14:06:54  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No, its steel framed.

C:
Tony Levand
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  18:16:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
steel framed and fiberglass fairing? Just asking because the fairing scale project says its only weighs 74 pounds...is this accurate? Seems light for an 11ft streamliner
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  18:56:01  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, fiberglass, 74 lbs is heavy. A coroplast lwb is 45-50 lbs with 15 lbs of coroplast.

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Martin

steel framed and fiberglass fairing? Just asking because the fairing scale project says its only weighs 74 pounds...is this accurate? Seems light for an 11ft streamliner



C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/09/2017 18:57:24
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2017 :  20:19:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Matthew, that Moby was built in the 80s. Bikes weren't very light back then. Steel frames, wet laid up bodies, and heavy components. But that bike is still being raced competitively.
I think your design peaked when it was short wheel base. Something of a super F-40, which as many will attest is the most successful two wheeled velo ever.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6294 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  08:25:20  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Check out the Coyote's frame. Maybe Speedy can help out with a picture of it.
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Speedy
recumbent guru

USA
891 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  12:14:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Coyote is a monocoque construction with some titanium sub-structures to hold the pedals and wheels.
The Rotator Pursuit and Interceptor models are probably the ones to study as they were "body on frame" designs.
Best weight was 28 pounds for titanium.
35 to 40 for cro/mo steel.
2" x .049 works fine.

Steve Delaire


Edited by - Speedy on 12/13/2017 08:01:06
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  05:34:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
my goal with the weight of this bike is to be 70 or lower (Lighter that a standard quest) . I can upgrade the fairing parts in the future to Cf. Monocoque construction seems daunting, and I really have not seen much on how to do this. It may be worth the extra time to make it monocoque. Could any of you guys help me understand the monocoque design process?


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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  09:53:07  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Anything is daunting but everyone wants it done right now or temper tantrum. Enjoy building or do without.

I had thought about using duratec products from fiberglast.com /youtube channel.

They have products that guard styrene foam the grey duratec primer goes over that. Your done after sanding & buffing. Then wax with tr mold release wax 7 times. (Yes tr on ebay too).

Some way to spray then sanding and buffing, then lay carbon in your female mold. I have a pro painter who has booth in his backyard so we spray my stuff after hours or weekends. Yay! Iam lucky in that department.

Your challenge is to shape a left and right female mold in foam. And sand in the joggle of both pieces to mate together. DURATEC MAKES IT VERY SIMPLE AFTER YOU REACH THE SHAPE YOU WANT. And your head and leg holes for your two wheeler. Or cut them out when complete. After you spray the thick foam protector, then spray the duratec grey primer you can lay some glass mat on other side of your 2 female molds for strength.

Once buffed you can make as many streamliner cover kits as you want. Hell put em on ebay. Lol.

THE KEY IS THE DURATEC PRODUCTS, WATCH MANY OF THE YOUTUBES ON THEIR CHANNEL. Duratec takes the work out. Get a 12” & 6” profile gage’s from ebay. You will need those to shape your left and right female mold.

Here: educate yourself by watching this channel’s videos

https://youtu.be/4t45KuOLDA8
_________________

velosRus.com

Edited by - carolina on 12/13/2017 10:12:02
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  10:39:19  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A monocoque bike is very involved and will take years to design and build. That is fine if you only want to design and build. If you want to ride the bike, then start with a simple steel framed bike, then add a coroplast fairing for testing.

C:
Tony Levand
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  11:08:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We designed and built the monocoque structured Coslinger Spcl in about 2 months. It was the first bike to ever run at BM, and the 3rd bike to exceed 70mph. Details of which are in this websites build area. It is still occasionally raced after 17 years. Using the Burt Rutan method I built the "Tub" in 1998 and it was the first mindless composite tube hpv. It took two weeks to build, complete. It DOES NOT take months or years to design and build a monocoque chassis hpv.
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  12:28:55  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Maybe not for the human power experts as on your team. But for a single 18 yo starting member who hasn't built anything in his life to do this? How many man hours for the Cos? Are you still tweaking it? You seriously think he can do this http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/cos2/our_story.htm in 2 months? HA! This blog is older than that already and he doesn't even settled on a concept design yet! Thom, You need to get your feet back on the ground.

quote:
Originally posted by Speedbiker

We designed and built the monocoque structured Coslinger Spcl in about 2 months. It was the first bike to ever run at BM, and the 3rd bike to exceed 70mph. Details of which are in this websites build area. It is still occasionally raced after 17 years. Using the Burt Rutan method I built the "Tub" in 1998 and it was the first mindless composite tube hpv. It took two weeks to build, complete. It DOES NOT take months or years to design and build a monocoque chassis hpv.



C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/13/2017 12:51:36
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  13:44:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am aware of Duratech and am aware of the mold making process...I would be a fool to even think about this project without first understanding at least that.

I should have specified my question. Just to put this out Cf is out of the question for this bike. I should have asked how to mount sub frames (steel in my case) into a body to make it monocoque, and how do I ensure that the body will be able to handle the stress of pedaling.

In regard to Alevand, I would not think about this project with out first making sure I have the skills to do so. I have made a recumbent which I spent months designing and to my pleasant surprise it work perfectly. I have made other bikes as well that are not relevant to a recumbent forum, and yes I have had failures. I want to use this project as an opportunity to learn composites. The reason I have not settled on a final design is I really cant afford to have a project that I will have invested fifteen hundred dollars or so into to fail. Anybody that has ever had a large project knows that planning helps so, that's what I have been doing, creating a daily in depth schedule for this project. I am starting this project on the strong belief that this bike will not take years to build, However if it does, so be it.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6294 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  14:14:47  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It sounds like your best option is to design and build a fully framed LWB bike that's designed to fit your streamliner. As Speedy notes, using 2" x .049 4130 tubing for your main frame tube should work well. Then you can ride it around and tweak the bike while you are building the body. With your design goals of 70 lb or less a frame-in-body 'liner will work well for you. Typically the bodies are held to the bikes with clamps in 3 locations:
1) In the front of the shell (for you probably integrated with the head tube assembly), typically a horizontal tube 90 degrees to the frame is glassed into the body.
2) Clamps on the frame bottom tube (usually under the seat) attach to the brackets glassed into bottom of the shell.
3) Brackets on the frame close to the rear dropouts stabilize the rear of the fairing.

In this way the fairing is well connected to the bike.

Also a fairing that's made of 2 layers of 8oz fiberglass and is reinforced in the high stress areas like around the mounting brackets, doors, and floor should produce a shell that's in your desired weight range. The Barracuda streamliner that I built around 1998 was built this way and is still being raced and occasionally crashed (and is still fast!).

With a budget of $1500 you will need to scrounge bike parts.

Warren

Edited by - warren on 12/13/2017 14:22:45
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  14:23:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  14:42:17  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A Monocoque (tub bike) can be built in several ways, but they all have two layers of skin in the shell separated by a core, either foam, nomex honeycomb or balsa. This is called sandwich construction. The sandwich can be either the whole half shell section or individual members. Connections are usually made by removing some of the core and potting in tapped fastener inserts with epoxy. Depending on the connection the skin can be built up also, called a doubler. These connections can be referred to as hard points. The sub frames are attached to the hard points. These types of bikes are usually front wheel drive. There are examples in the Projects page.

Tub Bike: http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/wianecki/frank-n-liner/default.htm

You can meet Warren in Cooper City, Florida during the Challenge races held in February (assuming he attends this year).

C:
Tony Levand

Edited by - alevand on 12/13/2017 16:00:22
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  18:42:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I just committed to this project with the purchase of a new groupset.

I ordered the Shimano Tiagra 4700, which was a good price. Also has a q factor of 150mm so it will fit my design
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  18:58:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The COS was quite a simple machine and worked right out of the box. The only real change was adding a canopy and landing gear for club racing. That bike has been raced at BM numerous times, hpv races, road time trails, the Belle Isle ultra, and done fun bike path rides. And if someone as dumb as me can build one, anyone can! Especially someone with Matthew's CAD skills.
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alevand
human power expert

USA
3260 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  19:31:59  Show Profile  Visit alevand's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thats great, Matt, the first real hardware. Low Q factor isn't as important in a LWB street bike as it is in a SWB bike, because of clearance needed in the fairing to turn the front wheel.

Good luck. Looking forward in seeing the final design.

Edited by - alevand on 12/13/2017 20:08:03
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carolina
recumbent guru

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  22:12:44  Show Profile  Visit carolina's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Matthew l thought your were building a 2 wheel bike with a shell on it.

Twill Carbon is 16$ more per yard than twill fg. I think extra 100$ in a shell u work months on is nothing and 4 yards of innegra is 40$.

Iam not sure what your are building.

A rutan body is a rutan body with no frame. I own an fly a varieze.

My velo is a frameless carbon unibody.

A ice or azub trike with a challenger body on it matthew is a trike with a challenger body on it. Period.

Iam not at all sure what you are building.

https://youtu.be/8y9LDJ3ozm4
———————-

velosRus.com

Edited by - carolina on 12/14/2017 04:15:24
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Speedbiker
human power expert

USA
3835 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  23:01:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Mike, I just remembered. Check your email....
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Matthew Martin
Starting Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  05:35:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Your right Carolina that was my original plan and I will most likely still do that. After hearing of a lighter option I thought it would work for what I wanted to do, Which it might, however I dont have to time to work out a moocoque design for my bike. Plus I will be able to take the bike out of the fairing and have n unfaired bike.

Would it still not be considered a streamliner? Larry Lem has pretty much created "speed bikes" by placing a frame in a fairing.
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warren
human power expert

USA
6294 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  07:57:17  Show Profile  Visit warren's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, it's still a streamliner with a frame in a fairing.
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